[ismschism]

Here's my story (sorry it's a long, but I hope you'll read, or at least skip to the bottom part about recommendations for the best player listed, particularly from Category 3!):
==========================================

I recently bought a new Sony Psyc D-E350 CD portable to play my CD-R's (my first portable CD player intended for use as a portable). It sounded very close to crap warmed over, to my ears. Starting with the fact that it either never got loud enough or was too loud (harsh, actually) at top volume. Plus I found the sound muddy, uninvolving and undetailed. To fix this, I bought another new player around the same price range, a Panasonic SX-320. This was a world of difference against the Sony PSYC. The SX-320 was a much wider soundstage, much more detail and depth; clearer, tighter bass, etc. But within an hour of having bought it, it too disappointed me greatly. The volume was even wimpier than on the Sony PSYC (although it didn't distort much at all on the highest volume, "25"; unlike with the Sony). But as well, I found the sound dry and uninvolving. After careful comparisons, I concluded the Sony was actually the more musical of the two; unfortunately. I attributed this to a lack of proper timbral 'coloration' on the Pana.

Now I was stuck with two new CD players I can't return, and still an unhappy camper about my portable CD sound. So I started doing some serious research on the net re: sound quality of cd portables, including posting queries over several audio newsgroups; in an effort to go for a used player that would satisfy my criteria. That got me no results and I couldn't find any source of serious discussion of sound quality of portable cd players on the web (or even at the newstands), until I found this place by way of an ebay ad. So now that I know where all the experts are hiding, I'm hoping some of you can offer guidance in my search.

Here's what I'm looking for:
==========================================

1. SOUND QUALITY ABOVE ALL: Musicality first (must be an involving, "liquidy" sound with presence, and no wimpy, recessed midrange). Then detail and clarity. Don't want a muddy, undetailed sound like that of my Sony D-181. Absolutely NO harshness or "headrill sound" at ANY volume. NO significant distortion at high volumes. Don't want any trace of a hard and fatiguing sound using my headphones.

2. VOLUME: NO wimpy 5mw headphone outputs (unless its a 5mw that sounds like a 10-15mw). Don't care about line out quality. I'd like to be able to hear details in music over din of subway noise.

3. CD-RW SUPPORT: Preferably (unless this would mean a compromise in sound quality - I only have a rare need for CD-RW support).

4. ANTI-SKIP: A player that is good enough to avoid skipping when anti-skip turned OFF (because OFF always sounds better. So ideally, a player in which compression can be turned off. ). Must be good enough to avoid skipping during regular walking activity with player in waist pouch. (Both my current new players meet this criteria, the older Sony D-181 doesn't).

5. Must be able to operate on regular AA or AAA batteries (I will never buy expensive specialized batteries).

6. I'm cheap and I've already blown my budget on the new players, so I wan't something I can get at a reasonable price. On the used market, that should only rule out the very high end new players and the extremely high end used players (ie. no D-777's or Denon's).

7. Don't care about headphones, I use my Koss Sportapro's or Jensen behind the ears.



Here's what I've Found In My Research That Looks To Be Good Sound & Features:
================================================== ===========

n.b. I've placed some of the players on my shortlist in categories of older and newer units, so as not to compare apples with oranges (I may want to get one from each).

- What I'd first like to know is which is the best sounding player listed per manufacturer (according to my preferences above), so I can eliminate the rest from "the competition" and compile a shorter list.

- Then I'd like to know which of these players is the best sounding player in its category (using headphone output), which meets my criteria above.

I'm also open to recommendations for players not on any of the lists below, that might meet my criteria for sound, volume etc. (CATEGORY 3 is the shorter shortlist of players that I think might be the top choices of the players I've researched, based on sound quality mostly). Thank you for your time.


CATEGORY 1
============

Panasonic:
-------------

SL-S230
SL-260
SL-S270
SL-320
SL-340
SL-341
SL-SX270
SL-SX280
SL-SX290
SL-SX300
SL-SX400
SL-SX410
SL-SX500
SLCT-480
SLCT-570
SLCT-780
SLCT-790
SW-SL860
SW-SL870
SL-SW895
SL-SW896V


Sony:
-------
D-FJ401
D-EJ825
D-EJ611
D-CJ01
D-EJ615
D-FS601
D-E446CK
D-E406CK
D-E561
DE-J50

TDK:
------
Mojo

Aiwa:
------
XP-500
XP-C507
XP-V74
XP-7
XP-6

Kenwood:
----------
DPC-81
DPC-551
DPC-731
DPC-72
DPC-782
DPC-81

Phillips/Magnavox:
----------------------
AZ7781
AZ7467
AZ9101
AZ922517
AZ7433

iRiver:
-------
SlimX


CATEGORY 2:
===========

Sony:
------
D-2
D-211
D-303
D-308
D-321
D-335
D-350
D-33
D-35
D-515
D-465
D-900
D-E905

Optimus:
---------
CDP-37
3480
3400
3904
5500


CATEGORY 3 (shortlist):
===========

Sony D-FJ401
Sony D-EJ825
Panasonic SLCT-470
Panasonic SLCT-570
Panasonic SX-500
Philips AZ7781
Kenwood DPC-551

 

[usc goose]

welcome to head-fi, welcome home.

 

[usc goose]

I take it you've read this?

 

[ismschism]

Quote:

Originally posted by usc goose welcome to head-fi, welcome home.

Thanks. Before finding Head-Fi, you could well say I was lost in a black tunnel, with no hope of finding answers to a lot of questions. My searches on Google for discussions of sound quality of PCDP's inevitably turned up the same usual suspects. About the only quasi-audiophile related site that came up and had any hope of giving me useful information on these players was Audioreview, which sucked big time (and I couldn't even FIND the reviews on Soundstage). Most of the reviews on Audioreview were just wastes of bandwidth, and most of the time, those people didn't sound like they knew or cared about sound quality. What I've read on this site is nothing at all like the reviews I've read on the others. Plus the font on the AR site was small and aggravating to read. Just about my only other resources were epinions and Amazon. It was better than nothing, which was usually the alternative, but I could never trust what was said about sound quality on those reviews; even less so than at Audioreview.

First, there was usually very little said about sound quality of the PCDP's, ironically, this also applied to those who pointed out in their review that there was usually little said about sound quality of PCDP's. (When I wrote a review of my Panasonic on Amazon, remarking about how little was said about sound quality of PCDP's, I didn't just stop there. I probably wrote more about sound quality in that one review than what all others wrote on Amazon combined). Most of the time, people on ePinions and Amazon would go through every insignificant aspect of the CD player under review, including the most utterly useless information, such as how hard it is to open the package. But squat about how the thing sounds. Generally, the few that did place in a word or two about the sound of these units were little help in telling me how well it reproduced music.

Secondly, most times I never got the impression the reviewers knew much about sound quality, in order to convey, compare and rate it. If a lot of epinions people rated, say, the Philips AZ7781 as having outstanding sound quality, and their only reference for sound quality is MP3 files, minidisc's, portable CD players or those cheesy little remote controlled mini-stereo systems, it might explain why they think a given CD player has outstanding sound quality. I've never heard a good portable CD player, so I don't have that as a point of reference myself. But I am very familiar with non-portable audio and I do know good sound when i hear it. Which is why I am spending countless hours and dollars to research a CD portable I can try to live with and enjoy.

Quote:

Originally posted by usc goose I take it you've read this?

Yes, that was one of the first things I read when I found this place (through an eBay ad for a Sony D25S ironically). That article was very well written and helpful in sorting out for me some of the older, venerable players in the Sony stable. It influenced me to look at acquiring an older, quality player; because I appreciate quality in all forms. But I am still largely interested in a newer player that sounds as good as a newer player can, because many of the older ones have no useful anti skip and are not practical for use on the street, and can't hope to play CD-RW's, if even CD-R's.

I would have liked to have seen the article include newer players that have acceptably good sound quality.

 

[mclaren20]

i have the pani sl-ct570, and i can gladly say that the koss ksc35's sound great out of it. the portapors are almost the same phone.. :d






and goose, only 2 posts out of that, im dissapointed, i wouldvr expected at least 3, amybe even 4.

 

[strohmie]

Alright, lemme see what I can do...

Category 1

SL-SX500
SL-CT480
SL-CT570
SL-CT780 - no
SL-CT790 - no

Forget about the 780 and 790 - battery life over sound. The CT470 and 570 supposedly have very similar sound characteristics, and are some of the better PCDPs out there nowadays. The SX500 has a cult following too and is known to be pretty good for a newish player. Supposedly, the modern leader is the iRiver SlimX...there are a number of posts about that. Putting the CT470, 570, and SX500 on your short list is relatively accurate if you're looking for a recent PCDP...add the SlimX too.

Category 2

- Optimus 3400 - known as much for its excellent sound as its poor build quality (which I've heard about from a number of sources)...

D-211
D-303
D-308
D-321
D-335
D-350
D-33
D-35
D-515
D-465
D-E900
D-E905

Haven't heard of the D-308...D-35 == D-350 (same player)...haven't heard as much about the D-321 or D-465. D-33 - good for pretty cheap. D-35 - slightly better than D-33. D-335 - useful for optical out but supposedly questionable overall sound quality. D-211 - Duncan's favorite momentarily. D-303 - IMO the best regarded PCDP by Sony from everything I've read (up there with the D-311). D-515 - rare as hell but supposedly excellent. D-E900 == D-E905 (same player) - excellent as far as sound goes.

My recommendation depends on your price range and what you're thinking of using the player for. Of the desktop ones, I'd chose the D-303, D-311, D-515 or D-Z555. All are expensive, and the D-515 is notoriously hard to find. The D-303 seems to be the most common of these. Of quasi portable ones (esp, decent battery life) I'd say the D-515, but again, it's hard to find. Of the truly portable ones, I'd recommend the D-777, D-E900/5. After the D-E900, sound quality dropped in most PCDP lines. If you want portability and a player that's easy to find/not too expensive with decent (but not up to old standards) sound quality, chose the CT470 or CT570 (the SX500 can be hard to find at times). The Sony D-FJ401 has gotten good reviews as well. For true portability, good sound quality, and mp3 ability, chose the SlimX line.

<falls over>

Anything else?

Edit 1: Most of the older players do actually play CD-Rs...scratched disks can be a touch problematic though. No personal experience with CD-RWs...

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Let's see what I can do...

SL-SX500
SL-CT480 - no
SL-CT570
SL-CT780 - no
SL-CT790 - no

strohmie, you forgot to cross the SL-CT480 off the list, as well; it's of the same generation as the SL-CT780. Additionally, the SL-CT480 has no line-out.

But even for sound quality, I was disappointed in my SL-CT470. My particular SL-CT470 actually sounded worse than some of the newest-generation, ultra-long battery life PCDPs: My CT470 sounded grainy and distorted at any volume, even with its anti-skip turned completely off. And if the fact that it sounded like hammered crap isn't enough...

 

[strohmie]

Ah, I read that as CT470 in his post and not 480. Yea, cross that one out. Note though that ismschism doesn't care about the line out.

Alright, judging by those comments about the 470, we might want to cross it off the list. That makes the short list CT570, SX500, iRivers, D-FJ401...someone add or subtract from this list with more comments.

ismschism - regarding #6:

6. I'm cheap and I've already blown my budget on the new players, so I wan't something I can get at a reasonable price. On the used market, that should only rule out the very high end new players and the extremely high end used players (ie. no D-777's or Denon's).

Does this make the maximum amount you'd be willing to pay around the $100 range?

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally posted by strohmie That makes the short list CT570, SX500, iRivers, D-FJ401...someone add or subtract from this list with more comments.

Well, you may want to eliminate the iRivers as a truly portable choice, since their battery life (at least the iMP-350 and the iMP-400) is far too short for practical use when playing regular audio CDs, unless you want to carry that unwieldy battery wand all the time. And the AA-powered iMP-150 is also way short in battery life compared to what I'd consider ideal for truly portable use. Thus, I'd recommend the iRivers for truly portable use only if you intend to play MP3s of relatively low bitrates (say, --alt-preset standard VBR with LAME).

By the way, about the SL-CT790, I rather like mine. The sound is actually pretty good for a very recent PCDP, though it doesn't produce much in the way of volume. The flaws are in the execution of its design, which requires the remote to even turn off the EQ whenever its gumstick rechargeables poop out enough to require recharging (the EQ gets reset to S-XBS by default), and in the remote itself (cannot properly accomodate many headphone plugs).

 

[ismschism]

Ok thanks, I'm getting closer to my goal! Thing is, I just need ONE relatively modern, "truly portable" player, and there seems to be a number of them that would meet my criteria. Is it possible to determine a clear winner in terms of sound quality of the more popular choices (listed below)? I don't expect anyone to have personal experience comparing all the models in my shortlist, so I'm looking for what may be 'common knowledge' or a general consensus on the people here on which is the best sounding player (via headphone output ), that is not restricted in volume. So far, I've got:

SHORT SHORTLIST:
================
Panasonic CT-470

Panasonic CT-570

Panasonic SX-500 (can't seem to find info on whether the SX-500/SX-300 is better or worse than CT's)

Sony D-FJ401 (is this model more restricted in volume than the Panasonic CT's?)

iRivers SlimX iMP350

Philips AZ7781 (got a lot of nods for sound quality at epinions, FWIW)

TDK Mojo (i hear this sounds good but unreliable build quality; seems to be made by RCA, maybe that explains it)


NOTE: I just thought of another criteria that may make the decision easier: Ideally, I'd like to burn & play 90 minute so-called "overburned" CD-R/CD-RW's. Are any of these models known to be able to play 90m CD's; or is it known that some makes are more likely to handle it than other makes?

Quote:

Originally posted by strohmie ismschism - regarding #6: Does this make the maximum amount you'd be willing to pay around the $100 range?

I don't have a dollar figure attached, but I certainly don't want to pay more. Doesn't look like I'd need to, unless I try to get some rare older 'tank' player. From what I've seen, with a bit of luck, I should be able to snag a decent used & discontinued player at a lot less than that.

 

[strohmie]

According to Eagle_Driver, the CT470's sound isn't wonderful...I'll look for more info. He likes his CT790 though...I had the CT780 and SX500 (the latter only for an audition - wanted to buy it buy ended up with the 510, which wasn't quite as good). The CT780 disappointed me.

I'll keep looking...I've been thinking about compiling a recommendation thread for a while...

 

[ismschism]

Quote:

Originally posted by Eagle_Driver But even for sound quality, I was disappointed in my SL-CT470. My particular SL-CT470 actually sounded worse than some of the newest-generation, ultra-long battery life PCDPs: My CT470 sounded grainy and distorted at any volume, even with its anti-skip turned completely off. And if the fact that it sounded like hammered crap isn't enough...

If there was one thing I thought I could be sure of from my research, it's that the Panasonic CT-470 was unanimously regarded as one of, if not the best sounding player of recent vintage (since the old Sony D-series). (I'm just not sure if the 570 is supposed to sound better). The 470 was in fact looking to me like the winning choice, possibly alongside Sony's D-FJ401. Yet you say the 470 sounds like hammered crap next to the newer ultra-long battery PCDP's, and I've never heard anything but bad things about the newer players in these circles, re: sound quality.

Which models are better than the 470? Which is the best sounding recent model to you? Did you have the blue cover 470 or silver cover? It sounds strange that it would be distorted at -any- volume; is it possible the batteries were dying when you heard this?

 

[strohmie]

I've seen other negative reviews of the CT470...for instance, from gloco:

"Panasonic SL-CT470 - Based on the glowing reviews/comments, i picked this log up two years ago. What a waste of money, the headphone jack sounds bland and incredibly weak compared to the rest of the pcdp's listed above. The line out is decent, but still, i really don't consider this a good pcdp to own unless your desperate. Probably the most overrated pcdp out there. The Sony DE561 beats it hands down, it has a line out, anti skip and provides good, clean sound out of the headphone jack. "

He was comparing this one to other PCDPs he's heard...it was at the bottom of his list, below the Sony 25S, 121, 141, 33, 2, and E561 (not in that order).

 

[Duncan]

ismschism

Forget the D-EJ50 that you said... first of all there is no E in the model number, and secondly its 12 years old (no CDRW compatibility)... also you'd pay a hefty premium for one of these very rare players

So far as I know all CD players (apart from those with badly focused lenses) will play CDRs (even my 18 going on 19 year old D50 Discman plays CDRs faultlessly... even 99 minute ones

)... its just CDRWs with their different dyes that causes the majority of CD players problems...

There is not one player that I can think of that can do all that you want... if you can drop the request for CDRW playback, then to me it goes to the standard duo... the Sony D777, or the harder to find D-E905...

...Good luck in your search

 

[[so]hai(R)]

hi ismschism, i wonder y the Iriver 550 isn't in ur list???

Is it the price is way out of ur budget???

550 is definately a step-up model from 350 and 400.... better battery life, better look (

), better sound (

)... and most of all, it can play CDR and CDRW....