[granodemostasa]

I just want to make the point be known that the Lavry's headphone amp in no way reflectst he DAC behind it. what i've heard with the Lavry and the Zana Deux is impressive... but lately i've been hearing it from the headphone amp alone and it sounds different.

problem:
there is a general lack of soundstage, both in depth, and in width.
the dynamics seem constrained at best, and hollowed out at worst.
the HD 650's performance has greatly diminished... the speed, the detail, and overall involvement of the headphone seemed to have been utterly destroyed by this headphone amp.

the point
some people would point out that a headphone is a bad one if it takes alot of money for it to sound as good as it can potentially sound. However, it must be noted that we dont' want to hear the headphone itself, but the source behind it. A headphone that can reveal the differences between different sources and different amps (and whatever else is in the chain) is the goal. the HD650 does this remarkably well (probably better than anything else in it's price range). So far i've heard drastic improvements in everything from balenced operation to cables with these headphones. The problem with the lavry's headamp is that it hides the source from the headphone.

 

[Voltron]

I have not been impressed with the Lavry's s/e headphone output with HD650s but I think the balanced output is very good with these cans. Have you tried that out? I have yet to do so, but I mean to try out my balanced Equinox and Wyvern Audio HD650 cables with blessingx's Lavry one of these days. I bet those will both top my previous sessions with Ric's balanced Zu (sucked as I expected) and balance-modded stock cable (kinda like what Headroom is going to offer). Give it a try.

 

[humanflyz]

Is that a fair comparison? You are comparing an almost $2000 dedicated amp to a headphone out jack of a $975 DAC. I mean, sure the ZD is incredible, but let's not forget where the Lavry fits in in the overall scheme of gears. This is more about value than performance on an absolute level, so is it really useful to say that a $975 DAC+amp sounds worse than a $2000 dedicated amp?

 

[granodemostasa]

that's not the purpose of my post. my point is that the headphone amp of the lavry doesn't reveal the dac's true potential. there are two things i'm going against here:
1. comming to the conclusion that the lavry isn't a good dac because one hears it only through it's headphone out. (i've seen this numerous times on the board, now i know why the lavry gets attacked by zhaolu owners, including myself.)
2. deciding that the sennheiser is a bad headphone based on it's peformance out of the lavry (or any other small amp). these things need power, and this amp doesn't have it.

the reason why i say this is because the zana deux actually sounded worse than the headphone out of another dac (which did reveal the full potential of that dac, although it wasn't much).

 

[blessingx]

As mentioned, balanced out mates surprisingly well with the HD650s. I have yet to hear a sub-$700 amp I prefer to it.

As for the headphone out, while I agree the HD6X0 family scales like no other, there are several phones (CD3K, RS1, HD595, etc.) that still expose even minor variations with a DAC and I think perform quite well with the Lavrys 1/4" out. So yes, not so great with the HD6X0, but quite well with many others. However if you're comparing it with the Zana Deux (from my limited time with it), MPX3 with the right tubes, etc. yes you can squeeze more out of the Lavry.

I wouldn't trust a review of a DAC/amp combo based on a single headphone or a review of a headphone based on one amp. I agree granodemostasa there is equipment that suffers by unflattering pairings. Out of all equipment discussed around here, I think the reputation of the GS1000 suffers most from this.

EDIT: Okay I delayed clicking save so typed this out before your above comments. Maybe my post is mute then, but I gotta ask, which DACs headphone out beat the Zana Deux?

 

[Voltron]

I guess I didn't get your point when I responded earlier, but now I understand. Like blessingx, I am very curious to hear what dac's headphone out sounded better than the ZD!, unless I didn't understand that correctly either.

 

[granodemostasa]

i agree that the GS1000 suffers greatly from poor synergy in some systems. i first tried it out 3 months ago and gave it a very poor rating. again, i tried it out a few weeks later and come to the conclusion that it was a better "performing" headphone than the HD650/K701 but that it's midrange was too unbalenced for my tastes. A week ago i got to try it out again, this time with the HD25/dac AH and with the B52/Meridian G08 and thought it was the best non balenced headphone i've ever heard, with nothing wrong in it's performance (extension/soundstage/speed) or balence.

the DAC that sounded worse with the ZD v. its headphone out was the Icarus, which uses the same amplificaiton circut for its headphone out and the RCA out.

 

[Snacks]

So, are you saying that the DA10 and to a certain extent, the HD 650 needs an amp to shine?

Have you come to the same conclusion using the balanced outs?

 

[Deuterium]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snacks /img/forum/go_quote.gif So, are you saying that the DA10 and to a certain extent, the HD 650 needs an amp to shine? Have you come to the same conclusion using the balanced outs?

I agree with the OP. The headphone out of the Lavry does not show the DAC to its best advantage. I have found that the balanced outs does, to my ears, prove a better arrangement. That said, I have ordered an Extreme to drive my cans from the Lavry.

 

[slwiser]

This is a big endorsement for the Lavry DA10 headamp since you are comparing it with your Zana Deux which appears to be almost twice the price at 1900$ for the whole Lavry itself. I wonder how much of the 1000$ Lavry is actually its amp? Maybe 400$? If so, the comparison is with an amp priced five times as much. So what if it provides a somewhat smaller soundstage both in depth and width and the dynamics may also be compressed in this test. If an add-on to the Lavry DAC can add something this good then there is no shame in coming in second to the Zana Deux. I also think there is some hyperbole going on with the "utterly destroyed" phrase below. It is this hyperbole that the following is directed.

The comparison between the Zana Deux amp and the Lavry headamp may not be a good one. The Lavry DA10 headamp is built to support the lower impedance headphones while it's balance XLR outs are designed for higher impedance loads . For headphones with an impedance above 300 ohms in general, the Lavry XLR outs should be used while using the Lavry. Using the Lavry at its best setup in this comparison with your Zana Deux would be more balanced. Therefore, balance your HD650 using the XLR outs of the Lavry and then let us know how it is "utterly destroyed" by the Zana Deux?

Another comparison that would be more balanced would be listening to your Zana Deux without the lavry between your Audiophile USB out and your headphone. Then compare that with the Lavry headamp as you have done. You may find that the USB Audiophile does an admirable job in this setup. Then you could totally depreciate the Lavry device.

The Zana Deux is one great amp and it still should be better than the Lavry but handicapping one while having the other in somewhat of an optimum setup may not be the best of comparisons.

To me there it just seems to be some lack of balance in the OPs original comparison that could be better addressed.

Re-reading this thread I see that what is being attempted to be stated is that for every piece of equipment to shine to their full potential all associated items in the audio train also need to be optimized. But that is not the way it was presented in the OP. Is there an amp that could "utterly destroyed" the Zana's sound presentation? I am sure someone could suggest one. If so, then the OP would be invalidated from it's clarified understanding. At this level personal sound preferences may have more to do with what is being "utterly destroyed" than anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by granodemostasa /img/forum/go_quote.gif I just want to make the point be known that the Lavry's headphone amp in no way reflectst he DAC behind it. what i've heard with the Lavry and the Zana Deux is impressive... but lately i've been hearing it from the headphone amp alone and it sounds different. problem: there is a general lack of soundstage, both in depth, and in width. the dynamics seem constrained at best, and hollowed out at worst. the HD 650's performance has greatly diminished... the speed, the detail, and overall involvement of the headphone seemed to have been utterly destroyed by this headphone amp. the point some people would point out that a headphone is a bad one if it takes alot of money for it to sound as good as it can potentially sound. However, it must be noted that we dont' want to hear the headphone itself, but the source behind it. A headphone that can reveal the differences between different sources and different amps (and whatever else is in the chain) is the goal. the HD650 does this remarkably well (probably better than anything else in it's price range). So far i've heard drastic improvements in everything from balenced operation to cables with these headphones. The problem with the lavry's headamp is that it hides the source from the headphone.

 

[philodox]

Balanced outs are good with the HD650 as has already been said... for the headphone out I would stick to low impedance headphones. It really shines with them.

 

[granodemostasa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox /img/forum/go_quote.gif Balanced outs are good with the HD650 as has already been said... for the headphone out I would stick to low impedance headphones. It really shines with them.

Hello
there is a clear difference between the balenced outs and the headphone out. The lavry uses different amplification circut for the headphone out than for the XLR out. the XLR out is direclty linked to the dac, while the headphone out is a smaller module. Because the Lavry was designed to function more as a dac, it is obvious that the XLR out would be far better sounding than the headphone out.

I have to agree that my what i originally wrote wasn't getting to the heart of what i originally wanted to say. in fact, i wrote it as a response to other posts i have read on the forum before, which is why it sounds like i was comparing the Zana Deux to the lavry, while what was not my original intent.