[Nomad]

Hi. I've been out of the hobby for 9 years. It's good to be back with you all.
I feel like exiting from a time capsule. Felt really weird replying to PMs from Jan 2013!

While I'm trying to catchup on threads (slowly, I'm so busy) I wonder how much the headphones have improved in the last decade and how the new best cans compare with the older ones, according to people who experienced both.

For reference, I'm very familiar with Orpheus (Big and Baby), SR-Omegas, Omega2s, R10s, Qualias, L3000s, PS-1s, K1000, HD650. Quite a few others but those could be the ones to compare against.

I'm starting to read about HE1s, SR-009s, Utopias, Empyreans, L5000s,... Planar ones... Sennheisers (HD800 and successors)... but while I find descriptions, comparative analysis with older well-regarded cans are most helpful to me.

So... Is there something that I really should try first? Doesn't have to be an HE1... could be something way more affordable but that is remarkable in its own way. And can it be related with the sound of one of the "ancient ones"?

Most importantly, do you think the headphones have noticeably improved lately compared with the old ones?

I wonder if IEMs is one of the areas of big improvements? My last custom IEMs were the UE10s. I visited UE in Irvine all excited when they came out. Since then I only got (fairly recently) the senns ie800s and the akg 3003s. Very nice, but not earth-shattering)

Looking forward to post back whenever I can. CU in the forums!


PS: I heard about Sennheiser and I felt shocked and so very sad. Not due selfish concerns regarding the servicing of the Orpheus, but because it was a company that gave us so much over the years and deserved to still be among us.

 

[number1sixerfan]

Welcome back. About a year and a half or so ago I came back from a similar hiatus. I've owned quite a few of the old legends like the PS-1s, the HP-1000, K1000, Baby Orpheus, etc. Most recently I actually had the chance to buy the L3000 and K1000 for a second and fourth time, respectively, after like 10 years, and own alongside the TOTL planars now.

The new TOTL headphones are technically more advanced. Headphones like the Sr1a and TC are simply better technically than just about any of the vintage headphones. However, some of the vintage headphones have more of a euphoric, realism that can give them an edge depending on the comparison. The L3000, as unique as it is, is probably my favorite headphone ever. Even with the TC, Susvara and 009 on hand, it was getting the most head time due to its incredible vocals and midrange, PRAT and tangible bass (TC comes close here, and is the best I've heard since). But with that said, other headphones had more detail, better soundstaging and lightning quick speed. The K1000 was a bit closer in some of the technical aspects, but still just not on the same level as the others.

Last thing to mention. I don't know that I'll ever buy another used vintage can ever again. Far too prone to driver and housing issues given the increased, appreciated cost. Really presents a huge risk imo. If you're used to those vintage cans, I would probably start at the newer TOTL cans and try to hear a variety of them if you can before purchasing. If you can't and just have to get started somewhere, I would say with a capable amp, the Susvara is probably like the safest bet. It's an all rounder that reminds me of the HD650 on absolute steroids. Good luck!

 

[protoss]

@number1sixerfan

Totally agree. The new cans are technically more advance. But missing that romantic euphoria sound that the vintage ones do so well. The Susvara is the closest to a vintage feeling in my opinion. I'll also take the L3000/R10 etch over any of these new headphones any day of the week .

The L3000/woodies are still cheap im going to buy a truck load of them one day. The drivers are strong like an OX. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-technica-the-master-of-wood.928704/

@Nomad
Buy the Susvara. Used ones are 3K ish.

 

[number1sixerfan]

@number1sixerfan

Totally agree. The new cans are technically more advance. But missing that romantic euphoria sound that the vintage ones do so well. The Susvara is the closest to a vintage feeling in my opinion. I'll also take the L3000/R10 etch over any of these new headphones any day of the week .

The L3000/woodies are still cheap im going to buy a truck load of them one day. The drivers are strong like an OX. https://www.head-fi.org/threads/audio-technica-the-master-of-wood.928704/

@Nomad
Buy the Susvara. Used ones are 3K ish.

If I could only have one, without a doubt the L3000 would be my pick. I still haven't tried to get my voice coil repaired as I'm really apprehensive with sending it to Japan (third party, not AT) during the pandemic. Already had one package get lost (and then eventually found) internationally, so yea. But definitely, there's really just no experience like it at all.

Haven't heard the R10. Plenty of them have been on the market and I've thought about it, but just too worried about the drivers.

 

[protoss]

@number1sixerfan

Wha..? I thought you got it fixed by now. Im not sure how they going to fix it without anymore L3000 drivers. The closes to the L3000 drivers are the W2002. Most likely you need to buy a W2002 and remove those drivers and install them on the L3000. And while at it, terminate the L3000 cable to a balance plug. This is what Ill do immediately if I was in your shoes. Sadly, the sound frequency will be different. Not sure for the worst because the W2002 are amazing and afterwards rebuy another woodie and install their drivers inside the W2002, because the W2002 deserves to be treated nicely.

I heard over 6 Sony R10s, probably in the 1% of people who did. I'm jealous of those who heard more pairs than me! F-U The driver failures is one of the biggest lies I heard. With authority I call them out as damaging the drivers while re-cabling them and fixing the earpad/foam. Most to all dead R10s are due to re-cabling gone wrong. Most will not admit this. And lie that their pair died. The other percentage of dead drivers are around the #1000-1350 models. Those drivers sucks.

The golden pairs are from #1 to 700. Well to be strict, its from #1 to 250.

 

[number1sixerfan]

@number1sixerfan

Wha..? I thought you got it fixed by now. Im not sure how they going to fix it without anymore L3000 drivers. The closes to the L3000 drivers are the W2002. Most likely you need to buy a W2002 and remove those drivers and install them on the L3000. And while at it, terminate the L3000 cable to a balance plug. This is what Ill do immediately if I was in your shoes. Sadly, the sound frequency will be different. Not sure for the worst because the W2002 are amazing and afterwards rebuy another woodie and install their drivers inside the W2002, because the W2002 deserves to be treated nicely.

I heard over 6 Sony R10s, probably in the 1% of people who did. I'm jealous of those who heard more pairs than me! F-U The driver failures is one of the biggest lies I heard. With authority I call them out as damaging the drivers while re-cabling them and fixing the earpad/foam. Most to all dead R10s are due to re-cabling gone wrong. Most will not admit this. And lie that their pair died. The other percentage of dead drivers are around the #1000-1350 models. Those drivers sucks.

The golden pairs are from #1 to 700. Well to be strict, its from #1 to 250.

Well, from a PM from another longstanding user here, they mentioned that there's a place in Japan that can possibly* repair the voice coils. They were nice enough to find the place and send to me, but I haven't contacted them because of the issues I've seen with international shipping. Just getting them to them is a risk.

I had the same thought process regarding the W2002, and found one on here for sale, but I was just too late right before they sold. I may still pick them up as a backup if I find another pair... but then again, the question becomes who can I have stateside do the work. So all in all, I'm pretty bummed about it and have almost given up.

And I'm not specifically talking about R10 driver failures, I'm speaking to vintage drivers being more prone to failure and issues than the newer headphones simply due to age. To me it makes sense why, and I've had issues with almost every vintage headphone I have (had two older stats just repaired and had issues in one of my HE60s, plus the K1000 recently). It's just a really big factor (for me) when talking about spending $7k on a headphone. 7-8 years ago it would've been less of an issue for me. But at this time, I'm just not inclined to buy any of the vintage headphones going forward (outside of w2002 out of necessity if needed).

 

[protoss]

@number1sixerfan

In vintage driver defense Audeze 2010-2020 drivers are next to trash. They should win an award for the most outstanding dead drivers in headphone history. Stax 009 had many problems. And a few Hifiman products. Surprisingly, the HD600/HD650 and HD800 have close to 0% driver failure rate. I haven't ever seen a HD800 dying.

Interesting, that someone can fix the voice coil in Japan.

As a collection, its nice to own a R10, no doubt about this. As a listener I hear you. I be somewhat paranoid. Also, I might part ways with my W2002, maybe not at the moment. PM if you want.

 

[murphythecat]

If you want best overall and have a powerful amp= Susvara
if you want TOTL, easy to power= Utopia
If you only listen to classicallor jazz and need no bass= Raal
If your a bass freak= Abyss

tbh, you need all 4

 

[TheMiddleSky]

@number1sixerfan

Audeze 2010-2020 drivers are next to trash. They should win an award for the most outstanding dead drivers in headphone history. Stax 009 had many problems. And a few Hifiman products.

I worked in headphone industry at that era, trust me, Focal suffer much worse than Audeze. At least here in SEA area.

 

[Redcarmoose]

“For reference, I'm very familiar with Orpheus (Big and Baby), SR-Omegas, Omega2s, R10s, Qualias, L3000s, PS-1s, K1000, HD650. Quite a few others but those could be the ones to compare against.”

Your quote above.
I’ve heard the K1000, HD650,Qualias, R-10s and baby Orpheus.

I too haven’t really explored that many TOTL headphones in the last 10 years. But it safe to say there has been a huge move towards IEMs in the last 10 years.

I have not heard any of the IEMs you have listed.

Your asking what to listen to first?

The amazing part of the hobby that has changed has been DACs. 9 years ago it was a big deal to decode everything.......DSD, 24 bit and so on. Now they have streaming too! Even if you believe 16/44.1 is all you need you should at least try the new DACs. As well as mid-fi amps have become very special. So not only have headphones changed but the means to make them sound good have changed. Also DAPs. The HiFi Man was a cool DAP 10 years ago, but DAPs have really come around. iPods are no longer regarded as the best sounding, though many still use them. What was considered high power (as far as DAPs go) is now common place. You may not even need a DAC/amp maybe depending on what headphones you choose? You almost could do everything with a DAP!

But keep in mind there are attributes of the headphones from 9 years ago that are still special. Sony’s replacement was a whole different team of engineering with a completely different new sound. They added a room-response to newer headphones. And in fact maybe you could even consider a room response even in their new amplifiers. They have a $8500.00 DMP-Z1 amp/DAC. They have new TOTL headphones called the MDR-Z1R and a TOTL IEM called the IER-Z1R. They should be coming out with new DAPs in a month or two also? They have the 2016 editions of Walkmans called the 1Z/1A which are totally great. Most of this has more bass than you remember with the engineering wing that made the R-10 and Qualias headphones. The HD650 are still well regarded and the HD800 is still considered TOTL in many circles!

AKG is maybe not as strong as they used to be? But really the big change in IEMs has been from China. What used to be multiple balanced armature $$$ sets from the USA has now been replaced by dirt cheap China made IEMs. Really if I was to guess there has been more change in China made IEMs than any part of the industry. Meaning you can spend $300 and get $1000 sound from 10 years ago.

I don’t really have the experience with full size headphones to be of a definitive opinion, but I’m sure others will fill that in.

Welcome back!

 

[Arnold Schwartz]

I went from HD800 to Utopia to see what sort of advancements occurred in dynamic drivers over the past 10 years.

The step up from HD600 to HD800 was like going from SD to HD video. HD800 to Utopia was like HD to UHD - better but not quite as noticeable a change and much less urgency to upgrade. Of course, when you’re deep in a hobby and you have spare cash let’s be honest, you will probably upgrade.

After getting the Utopias a few months ago, I hadn’t listened to my HD800 since. A few days ago I decided to try my HD800 for old times sake and do a comparison with the Utopia - I was stunned. They were similar tonality wise but the Utopia was a step up however that had its own trade offs. It made me question the value proposition when the pinnacle of dynamic driver design is only slightly ahead.

Rest assured that in 10 years it hasn’t changed all that much, a lot of it is exaggerated. It’s reassuring you can get great gear without having to mortgage the house and the extra performance is not always welcome - like watching an old film in 4K which reveals bad makeup or set pieces that ruin some of the illusion and pleasure of watching because those imperfections were previously masked.

For happiness sake, spend less time reading and more time listening.

 

[whirlwind]

“For reference, I'm very familiar with Orpheus (Big and Baby), SR-Omegas, Omega2s, R10s, Qualias, L3000s, PS-1s, K1000, HD650. Quite a few others but those could be the ones to compare against.”

Your quote above.
I’ve heard the K1000, HD650,Qualias, R-10s and baby Orpheus.

I too haven’t really explored that many TOTL headphones in the last 10 years. But it safe to say there has been a huge move towards IEMs in the last 10 years.

I have not heard any of the IEMs you have listed.

Your asking what to listen to first?

The amazing part of the hobby that has changed has been DACs. 9 years ago it was a big deal to decode everything.......DSD, 24 bit and so on. Now they have streaming too! Even if you believe 16/44.1 is all you need you should at least try the new DACs. As well as mid-fi amps have become very special. So not only have headphones changed but the means to make them sound good have changed. Also DAPs. The HiFi Man was a cool DAP 10 years ago, but DAPs have really come around. iPods are no longer regarded as the best sounding, though many still use them. What was considered high power (as far as DAPs go) is now common place. You may not even need a DAC/amp maybe depending on what headphones you choose? You almost could do everything with a DAP!

But keep in mind there are attributes of the headphones from 9 years ago that are still special. Sony’s replacement was a whole different team of engineering with a completely different new sound. They added a room-response to newer headphones. And in fact maybe you could even consider a room response even in their new amplifiers. They have a $8500.00 DMP-Z1 amp/DAC. They have new TOTL headphones called the MDR-Z1R and a TOTL IEM called the IER-Z1R. They should be coming out with new DAPs in a month or two also? They have the 2016 editions of Walkmans called the 1Z/1A which are totally great. Most of this has more bass than you remember with the engineering wing that made the R-10 and Qualias headphones. The HD650 are still well regarded and the HD800 is still considered TOTL in many circles!

AKG is maybe not as strong as they used to be? But really the big change in IEMs has been from China. What used to be multiple balanced armature $$$ sets from the USA has now been replaced by dirt cheap China made IEMs. Really if I was to guess there has been more change in China made IEMs than any part of the industry. Meaning you can spend $300 and get $1000 sound from 10 years ago.

I don’t really have the experience with full size headphones to be of a definitive opinion, but I’m sure others will fill that in.

Welcome back!

AKG is maybe not as strong as they used to be? But really the big change in IEMs has been from China. What used to be multiple balanced armature $$$ sets from the USA has now been replaced by dirt cheap China made IEMs. Really if I was to guess there has been more change in China made IEMs than any part of the industry. Meaning you can spend $300 and get $1000 sound from 10 years ago.

Welcome back @Nomad .....no need to overspend to get good sound.
If you have the resources to grab a TOTL headphone / amp / dac I am sure you will be quite happy with your options, as there are many out there.
Both tubes and SS

The above statement about the China made IEM's is spot on. I recently bought a cheap DAP that plays DSD files and some cheap IEM's from China and some cheap balanced cables and the bang for the dollar may be tough to beat. Granted , they may break tomorrow...but I have beaten around a few pairs for the last few months and not had any problems. I only use for work and on the go.

Nice to see you back and enjoy your journey and the music.

 

[paradoxper]

Times have changed and yet have stayed the same.

The one revelation regarding a reference of top stat resolution, speed and startling ethereal presentation would be the SR1a which presents what the K1000 always strived for. Aside from that, the refinements are here to stay as your Susvara or 1266 match the STAX speed and resolution and can smash them in full-bodied, dynamic engagement.

The closed offerings have also improved quite a bit.

 

[Deolum]

Headphones don't have improved at all. They just got more expensive making people think they have improved.

IEMs on the other hand have improved very much.

 

[DuncanDirkDick]

For me the totl tier didn't really improve over the last 10 years. You have more options to choose from, that's for sure. Planars emerged and brought more robust, less maintenance totl to the market. But soundwise...

I think the mid tier is way more interesting. Think about Sundaras with any capable Chinese dac/amp. You basically get a full fetched, 90% there kind of experience for 600$ now.