[Jake2]

Unless I misunderstood, why wouldn't it be up to you, or any other consumer? You have to justify the purchase to solve any real or perceived shortcomings in engineering with the DAC's digital front end. Perception of jitter at the levels of performance we get stock is pretty academic at this point.

My apologies - I responded a little hastily, thought you meant me in relation to my comments above around the potential impact of USB/I2S quality in the context of a DAC comparison rather than meaning ‘any consumer’. Naturally I agree each consumer has to make that value judgement - which is tricky of course in the case of Streamers/DDCs/USB regens if you don’t have a chance to hear before buying with one’s own system, reliance on pro and owner reviews is the only option. To wit I made my comment as I’ve done a fair bit of experimentation with USB regenerators and DDCs of late incl the PhoenixUSB (kindly loaned to me), the LHY UIP and the Audio-GD DI-20HE and the difference these very good ones can make is quite remarkable. Anyway this is getting even further off topic, so I’ll pipe down and leave the floor to LAiV owners to share their listening experiences when they’re ready.

 

[]eep]

But he's kind of not wrong. Jay (from Jays Iyagi) also swore off DAC reviews with a meme stack of topping/smsl next to him because even 2 years ago it was getting absurd. Granted he is also a high-end reviewer and entertains cables and risers and other voodoo, but I don't think he is dishonest either.

On the one hand, the depreciation is the reality of market perception. Is him making the observation contributing to a self-fulfilling prophecy? Perhaps.

But c'mon, just look around the space we've got the mk1,2,3,4,5,6 versions out, LTD's, Pro versions, and new updates every time AKM/ESS releases a new chip with -1 SINAD rather than meaningful upgrades to output stages, volume pots, or digital front ends (digital filters beyond OEM/USB handling or Galvanic standard). I looked a couple months ago, and SMSL had something like 33 DAC's available for purchase at the same time NOT including pro versions (DAC/AMP all-in-ones).

While LAIV and Holo make leaps and bounds for "ChiFi" there's many other companies upholding the perception. Don't forget the clones and the mini-drama between Musician and Denafrips.

What you talk about has nothing to do with chifi. It was like that in the 70-ies and up with every year a complete new line from Sony, Akai, JVC, Philips, Sansui, Onkyo, and all the big brands.

I kind of understand Jay Lee, but don't agree with him on that. I have been in Chinese audio for 15 years now, and brands likeude, Topping and SMSL started with small amps that really broke open the stale and super expensive hifi market and made it possible for young people to get very well sounding amps and DACs for very small prices. Before that most DACs were crap and overpriced. I stil have Muse DACs and amps that kick the crap out of western peers from that time at 10 to 20x the price.

And then there are the seriously high end brands from China that are a totally different story. Brands like Cayin, Opera Consonance, Yarland, Jolida, Dussun, Eizz, FFYX. And recently new cartridge builders that are also OEM like Excsony and Zhige. I have several of those and they are awesome, rivaling western boutique brands for ½ to ⅕ the price.

All discrete R2R DAC manufacturers are clearly not pushing out new models every month. It's simply impossible just because they are discrete and not made in large quantities. That means Holo, Denafrips, Musician and Laiv. Gustard in a way in the middle. As is Audio'gd.
Yes I agree there is something fishy with Musician (incommunicado on service and transparency). Holo has lots of snake oil vibe imo. Denafrips lacks consistency on design.

And also Topping and SMSL their top lines are definitely not mass produced slop but very worthwhile. I have some of the SMSL 400 line stuff and I'm very happy with them.

So let's just comment on the Laiv Harmony and share experiences.

 

[OhmsClaw]

What you talk about has nothing to do with chifi. It was like that in the 70-ies and up with every year a complete new line from Sony, Akai, JVC, Philips, Sansui, Onkyo, and all the big brands.

I kind of understand Jay Lee, but don't agree with him on that. I have been in Chinese audio for 15 years now, and brands likeude, Topping and SMSL started with small amps that really broke open the stale and super expensive hifi market and made it possible for young people to get very well sounding amps and DACs for very small prices. Before that most DACs were crap and overpriced. I stil have Muse DACs and amps that kick the crap out of western peers from that time at 10 to 20x the price.

And then there are the seriously high end brands from China that are a totally different story. Brands like Cayin, Opera Consonance, Yarland, Jolida, Dussun, Eizz, FFYX. And recently new cartridge builders that are also OEM like Excsony and Zhige. I have several of those and they are awesome, rivaling western boutique brands for ½ to ⅕ the price.

All discrete R2R DAC manufacturers are clearly not pushing out new models every month. It's simply impossible just because they are discrete and not made in large quantities. That means Holo, Denafrips, Musician and Laiv. Gustard in a way in the middle. As is Audio'gd.
Yes I agree there is something fishy with Musician (incommunicado on service and transparency). Holo has lots of snake oil vibe imo. Denafrips lacks consistency on design.

And also Topping and SMSL their top lines are definitely not mass produced slop but very worthwhile. I have some of the SMSL 400 line stuff and I'm very happy with them.

So let's just comment on the Laiv Harmony and share experiences.

I addressed what John said and your comments on it in relation to Laiv and where he was coming from with additional context. The only other context in relation to his comments are tackled by Kitsune doing distribution for Holo and Laiv aiming to ease VAT/Duties with their distribution direct sales model as well.

So why did you bring up Darko? It's also very relevant to the perception surrounding resale value and the hesitancy surrounding another new company on the scene.

No serious person calls Holo, Laiv, or Cayin "Chifi". That's reserved for entry level IEMS and equipment. Yes it's a derogatory term directed at high volume dubious quality.

No one is reviewing the VMV D3 or R2R in the same category as the mountain of entry level components in competition with their own catalogs and others.

 

[]eep]

I addressed what John said and your comments on it in relation to Laiv and where he was coming from with additional context. The only other context in relation to his comments are tackled by Kitsune doing distribution for Holo and Laiv aiming to ease VAT/Duties with their distribution direct sales model as well.

So why did you bring up Darko? It's also very relevant to the perception surrounding resale value and the hesitancy surrounding another new company on the scene.

No serious person calls Holo, Laiv, or Cayin "Chifi". That's reserved for entry level IEMS and equipment. Yes it's a derogatory term directed at high volume dubious quality.

No one is reviewing the VMV D3 or R2R in the same category as the mountain of entry level components in competition with their own catalogs and others.

Ok, I have (or had) a different understanding of the word chifi. Look, I'm not a native English speaker so I tend to interpret words on face value (or etymology). Is hifi derogatory as well then? Compared to 'high end'? Hifi is just an old standard that doesn't mean much anymore.

What I do know is international relations (or lack thereof) and the totalitarian propaganda surrounding it have a strong influence on perception of products. It is good to support local manufacturing. But IMO the fierce hostility to products manufactured in upcoming markets is not. We can do without all the polarisation and fear mongering. Those are tactics used by monopolists (aided by laws, import duties, embargos, sanction, patents, campus revolts etc), it is not true capitalism where the consumer benefits with the best product for the lowest price.

A new entry in the market is always welcome. Especially this well thought out.

 

[PopZeus]

Can I have both the RCA and XLR outs active at the same time with this DAC into 2 different amps?

 

[TubaDuba]

Can I have both the RCA and XLR outs active at the same time with this DAC into 2 different amps?

not sure.. a bit confusing in the manual:

HARMONY DAC | Manual

Finally, on the left side, are the
analog outputs, comprising both single-ended and balanced outputs, allowing you to seamlessly connect the
DAC to your amplifiers or other audio equipment for exceptional sound reproduction.

Please do not connect both RCA outputs and XLR outputs to the amplifiers simultaneously, this may
damage the DAC.

 

[OhmsClaw]

not sure.. a bit confusing in the manual:

HARMONY DAC | Manual

Finally, on the left side, are the
analog outputs, comprising both single-ended and balanced outputs, allowing you to seamlessly connect the
DAC to your amplifiers or other audio equipment for exceptional sound reproduction.

Please do not connect both RCA outputs and XLR outputs to the amplifiers simultaneously, this may
damage the DAC.

Either a grounding warning or a load issue (pulling too much output simultaneously could overdrive the output stage)

 

[George Hincapie]

Have any of you actually bought this DAC yet? Curious to learn how good it actually is in comparison to others.

 

[L2470]

https://www.laiv.audio/product-page/harmony-dac

reviews

 

[]eep]

Either a grounding warning or a load issue (pulling too much output simultaneously could overdrive the output stage)

Correct. Denafrips has the same warning. It is a load issue.

What I learned from working on my TDA1543 DACs is that it needs a certain resistance to ground. That's the most basic I/V stage possible. That's your output resistance. The value has a very large influence on the sound. Compare it to connecting 2 pair 4Ohm loudspeakers on an 8ohm amplifier. Not completely accurate but you get the idea.

 

[George Hincapie]

https://www.laiv.audio/product-page/harmony-dac

reviews

I'd prefer owner feedback from members here.

 

[Jake2]

I'd prefer owner feedback from members here.

There’s a chap with a Chord Dave who’s had one about a week I’ve encouraged to share his impressions when he’s ready to do so.

 

[]eep]

I just watched a video by an older guy who has been in the business for decades, and reviewing for years. Je knows all the luxury brands and the people behind it.

Notice the discrepancy. He just discovered SMSL. I think this is the reason 2ndH "chifi" does not command as much. He was even talking about the "second golden era of hifi". How much better the new DACs are that this cheap $80 dac was rivalling the luxury brands of a decade ago.

The same happened when Harvey Lovegrove of Pearl Audio speakers who has a wonderfull YouTube channel was asked by SMSL to review their VMV A1 amplifier. He was totally surprised by the quality. He initially answered Mandy (SMSL) he'd accept it but that it wasn't his cup of tea and he'd probably send it back after trying. He didn't send it back.
Or how Paul McGowan laughed when he heard of the name Denafrips. Not knowing it's a very formidable competitor to his own products.



That's why I think depreciation of "chifi" gear is not based on value but on perception (and xenofobia). And Laiv will catch a lot of competitors by surprise.

 

[Lucus]

By the way: Is this DAC a balanced one, or an unbalanced/single ended design ?

 

[Lucus]

I am also a bit surprised: It is said in the reviews that the resistor have a 0.05 % accuracy. This is actually not very good, far from the 0.01% of, said, TotalDac, and very far from the 0.005% from Musician: Is it a mistake from the reviewers, or are they that bad ?
Normally the accuracy of the resistors make a big difference in sound (but also in price...)