L0rdGwyn's DIY Audio
Dec 17, 2019 at 10:05 PM Post #46 of 6,808
Don't put much trust into either the datasheet or LTSpice sim. LTSpice models are usually not perfect. Tubes also vary tube by tube, and brand by brand. You can really only measure differences in distortion well when the whole circuit is put together and the amp output directly measured. In general, running higher voltage (and lower current) operating points on triode strapped pentodes/tetrodes will give you higher output power overall, but slightly greater distortion. But again, this can vary by tube... :deadhorse: The higher distortion at higher voltage operating points can be compensated to some degree by using output transformers with higher primary impedance (however, higher primary impedance means lower max output power, so always tradeoffs).

Duly noted, thanks Mischa. Interesting I am seeing the opposite pattern, lower distortion at higher plate voltages, wonder if that is just a fault of the model. The datasheet would seem to suggest lower distortion at lower plate voltage, so I had intended to run the power tubes around 250-275V on the plates.

In your experience, what would you say is the most useful information to pull from LTSpice before you start building?
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 9:42 AM Post #47 of 6,808
Very exciting project, good luck with your build.

In my limited experience the better the power supply the better the amp.
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 11:47 AM Post #48 of 6,808
Very exciting project, good luck with your build.

In my limited experience the better the power supply the better the amp.

Thanks, Stavros! In its current iteration, I am looking at around 150 microvolts ripple on the output. But your post has inspired me to reevaluate my design to be sure I am ticking all of the right boxes.

I have found this page to be very helpful, going to read through it again today: https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Tube-Power-Supplies/

These pages are more to-the-point if anyone is interested in understanding some aspects of these power supplies:

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/bridge.html
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/smoothing.html
 
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Dec 18, 2019 at 12:18 PM Post #49 of 6,808
Sorry LG - when I see equations like
eq22.png

I just shut down.....
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 12:22 PM Post #50 of 6,808
Sorry LG - when I see equations like
eq22.png

I just shut down.....

Haha no mordy you're supposed to use the other links!!! From Valve Wizard, they are much more digestible. A few equations, but nothing like that. That's why I posted those too :wink:
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 1:27 PM Post #52 of 6,808
Thanks, Stavros! In its current iteration, I am looking at around 150 microvolts ripple on the output. But your post has inspired me to reevaluate my design to be sure I am ticking all of the right boxes.

I have found this page to be very helpful, going to read through it again today: https://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Tube-Power-Supplies/

These pages are more to-the-point if anyone is interested in understanding some aspects of these power supplies:

http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/bridge.html
http://www.valvewizard.co.uk/smoothing.html
Separate power supply with umbilical cord connecting the power supply to the amp? :wink: I have Lundahl and Hammond transformers in my power supply for the OTL amp that Mischa built. Obviously as this is an OTL amp, there are no transformers in the amp section (just caps - Clarity caps and Jupiter caps).
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 1:45 PM Post #53 of 6,808
Separate power supply with umbilical cord connecting the power supply to the amp? :wink: I have Lundahl and Hammond transformers in my power supply for the OTL amp that Mischa built. Obviously as this is an OTL amp, there are no transformers in the amp section (just caps - Clarity caps and Jupiter caps).

I can't say the thought didn't cross my mind! But too late anyway since the chassis has been cut I like the look of the rectifier in the middle :) I will be using Lundahl transformers as well with Hammond chokes as of right now, but I am probably going to look into having some custom chokes wound by Heyboer for a higher current rating, not a lot of headroom on the 200mA Hammonds I have in the circuit right now. I looked at using a single Clarity Cap in the power supply as the resevoir capacitor, but the lowest capacitance they make is 25uF* which is too high for my tube rectifiers, so I'll be using an Auricap instead. I guess I could think about using Clarity Caps for the filters in the power supply, but as you know they are friggin' HUGE! I could probably fit them though, hmm...now look what you've done.
 
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Dec 18, 2019 at 1:58 PM Post #54 of 6,808
I can't say the thought didn't cross my mind! But too late anyway since the chassis has been cut I like the look of the rectifier in the middle :) I will be using Lundahl transformers as well with Hammond chokes as of right now, but I am probably going to look into having some custom chokes wound by Heyboer for a higher current rating, not a lot of headroom on the 200mA Hammonds I have in the circuit right now. I looked at using a single Clarity Cap in the power supply as the resevoir capacitor, but the lowest capacitance they make is 25uF* which is too high for my tube rectifiers, so I'll be using an Auricap instead. I guess I could think about using Clarity Caps for the filters in the power supply, but as you know they are friggin' HUGE! I could probably fit them though, hmm...now look what you've done.
Yes the Clarity Caps are huge. We couldn't fit them inside the amp section of my amp, so they had to go on the outside enclosed with transformer enclosures.

I see you're going with tube rectification. I wanted to go this route as I have a lot of nice rectifiers, but Mischa persuaded me otherwise. Might make for a good discussion of pros vs cons of tube rectification vs solid state rectification - as long as we stick to a technical discussion and don't start a flame war lol. But, we're all friends on here :)
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 2:13 PM Post #55 of 6,808
Yes the Clarity Caps are huge. We couldn't fit them inside the amp section of my amp, so they had to go on the outside enclosed with transformer enclosures.

I see you're going with tube rectification. I wanted to go this route as I have a lot of nice rectifiers, but Mischa persuaded me otherwise. Might make for a good discussion of pros vs cons of tube rectification vs solid state rectification - as long as we stick to a technical discussion and don't start a flame war lol. But, we're all friends on here :)

Actually they aren't as big as I thought, the Clarity Caps I would be using are about 2 inches in diameter. I'll have quite a bit of real estate on the back panel since the driver filament rectification will be done on a PCB. I'll probably swap out the Audio Note electrolytics in the PS for these. Thanks @leftside !

From a purely technical standpoint, the only real advantage I know of for tube rectifiers is their "soft start" characteristic, which is easy on the power supply capacitors. In pretty much every other way, solid-state rectifiers are better technically. BUT tube rectifiers win for looks and magic of course :) been hearing too much about this magic not to give it a try.
 

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Dec 18, 2019 at 4:40 PM Post #56 of 6,808
I remember Glenn telling me that running the tubes at 250 volt. besides the advantage of longer lasting tubes....also less distortion....so there is an advantage to not pushing these tubes to get further power.
 
Dec 18, 2019 at 8:38 PM Post #57 of 6,808
Duly noted, thanks Mischa. Interesting I am seeing the opposite pattern, lower distortion at higher plate voltages, wonder if that is just a fault of the model. The datasheet would seem to suggest lower distortion at lower plate voltage, so I had intended to run the power tubes around 250-275V on the plates.

In your experience, what would you say is the most useful information to pull from LTSpice before you start building?

No problem Keenan :) There are quite a few things that you can pull from LTSpice. When designing a circuit, I like to work from the load backwards; Determine the headphones/speakers/etc. that will be hooked up to the amp. You can then choose the output transformer based on the needed power into that load. Higher primary impedance usually gives lower distortion, but less power. Headphones are an easy load, so best to choose a high(er) primary impedance. Your chosen output transformer (LL2765) is a good choice for this. Then you can determine how much swing into the primary of the transformer is necessary to get the desired output power you want into the pair of headphones/speakers, and design the rest of the circuit from there (e.g. making sure that your driver tube can swing enough voltage at low enough distortion, and ditto for the power tube).

Some of the biggest things that I find LTSpice helps me check is to make sure that the power supply is built robustly. It's always good to do simulations at multiple frequencies (e.g. sim 20Hz, 40Hz, 100Hz, 1000Hz, etc.) to make sure you have low enough power supply ripple at all frequencies. You can also run a frequency sweep and check for any roll-off or abnormalities on the output (e.g. low end roll-off if the coupling cap or cathode bypass caps aren't sized right, or high-freq roll-off if the grid resistors are too high value, etc. etc.). Good to make sure that the circuit behaves how you want it to both when your wall voltage is low (as low as 110V) and that nothing will fry/blow out if wall voltage goes high for some reason (e.g. 140V). LTSpice is also good at calculating the effects of negative feedback if the tube models are good (though I don't use negative feedback myself in my designs). Also good for checking to make sure that supply voltages are always above the drop-out voltage of any linear regulators you use. Also good to check that the B+ voltage always stays above the drop-out voltage for the constant current source that you are using or there will be some major distortion from the driver stage. LTSpice is a more accurate simulation than PSUD2 for the power supply. Also good to send some transients through the circuit to look at various nodes for oscillations. This is especially important when choosing capacitor sizes and choke inductance(s) in the power supply. There are probably lots of things that I'm not remembering right now... too full of junk food from the Christmas buffet at my lab.

I see you're going with tube rectification. I wanted to go this route as I have a lot of nice rectifiers, but Mischa persuaded me otherwise. Might make for a good discussion of pros vs cons of tube rectification vs solid state rectification - as long as we stick to a technical discussion and don't start a flame war lol. But, we're all friends on here :)

From a purely technical standpoint, the only real advantage I know of for tube rectifiers is their "soft start" characteristic, which is easy on the power supply capacitors. In pretty much every other way, solid-state rectifiers are better technically. BUT tube rectifiers win for looks and magic of course :) been hearing too much about this magic not to give it a try.

Here are some factors that I've come across when choosing tube vs. ss rectification:

Tube rectifier pros:
- They look so cool!
- Tube rolling allows you to play around with circuit operating points
- They give the amp more of a "vintage tone" that can be very pleasant to the ear, and the tone can be varied to some degree by choice of rectification tube. (But see next section on cons)
- Less tendency to cause transformer ringing and less diode switching noise than ss rectification

Tube rectifier cons:
- The tone qualities from tube rectifiers is due in part to what is known as voltage "sag" when the tube rectifier is asked to provide greater current, and then the tube rectifier shows voltage "bloom" as it recovers and overshoots. This leads to less defined, slower and "woolly" bass, and less clarity/precision in high frequencies.
- Larger voltage drop across the tube
- Additional heater supply needed

Solid State diode pros:
- Less voltage drop
- No heater supply
- Does not show sag and bloom like tube rectifiers
- If done right: Can design for extremely low power supply noise & better bass and clarity in mids and high frequencies than can be achieved with tube rectification alone

Solid State diode cons:
- Doesn't look as good
- If done wrong: Can cause more transformer ringing, and current spiking/diode switching noise can reverberate throughout the power supply (and into the signal) resulting in a harsher sounding amp

How to do solid state rectification right: Employ RC transformer snubbers for transformer and supply zeta=1 ("critical") damping, use fast soft-recovery diodes (e.g. hexfreds, SiC Schottky's, etc.), bound rectifiers with resistance before and after the diode to decrease current spiking (which can cause supply ringing), and use capacitance multipliers and other Mosfet filtering techniques to bring power supply ripple down to extremely low levels. Also possible to build in soft-start without too much difficulty. An example: Leftside's amp has no electrolytic caps in the high voltage supply (lots of big 85uF oil caps with no electrolytic distortion), and B+ power supply ripple is under 30uV :ksc75smile:
 
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Dec 19, 2019 at 7:06 PM Post #58 of 6,808
No problem Keenan :) There are quite a few things that you can pull from LTSpice. When designing a circuit, I like to work from the load backwards; Determine the headphones/speakers/etc. that will be hooked up to the amp. You can then choose the output transformer based on the needed power into that load. Higher primary impedance usually gives lower distortion, but less power. Headphones are an easy load, so best to choose a high(er) primary impedance. Your chosen output transformer (LL2765) is a good choice for this. Then you can determine how much swing into the primary of the transformer is necessary to get the desired output power you want into the pair of headphones/speakers, and design the rest of the circuit from there (e.g. making sure that your driver tube can swing enough voltage at low enough distortion, and ditto for the power tube).

Some of the biggest things that I find LTSpice helps me check is to make sure that the power supply is built robustly. It's always good to do simulations at multiple frequencies (e.g. sim 20Hz, 40Hz, 100Hz, 1000Hz, etc.) to make sure you have low enough power supply ripple at all frequencies. You can also run a frequency sweep and check for any roll-off or abnormalities on the output (e.g. low end roll-off if the coupling cap or cathode bypass caps aren't sized right, or high-freq roll-off if the grid resistors are too high value, etc. etc.). Good to make sure that the circuit behaves how you want it to both when your wall voltage is low (as low as 110V) and that nothing will fry/blow out if wall voltage goes high for some reason (e.g. 140V). LTSpice is also good at calculating the effects of negative feedback if the tube models are good (though I don't use negative feedback myself in my designs). Also good for checking to make sure that supply voltages are always above the drop-out voltage of any linear regulators you use. Also good to check that the B+ voltage always stays above the drop-out voltage for the constant current source that you are using or there will be some major distortion from the driver stage. LTSpice is a more accurate simulation than PSUD2 for the power supply. Also good to send some transients through the circuit to look at various nodes for oscillations. This is especially important when choosing capacitor sizes and choke inductance(s) in the power supply. There are probably lots of things that I'm not remembering right now... too full of junk food from the Christmas buffet at my lab.





Here are some factors that I've come across when choosing tube vs. ss rectification:

Tube rectifier pros:
- They look so cool!
- Tube rolling allows you to play around with circuit operating points
- They give the amp more of a "vintage tone" that can be very pleasant to the ear, and the tone can be varied to some degree by choice of rectification tube. (But see next section on cons)
- Less tendency to cause transformer ringing and less diode switching noise than ss rectification

Tube rectifier cons:
- The tone qualities from tube rectifiers is due in part to what is known as voltage "sag" when the tube rectifier is asked to provide greater current, and then the tube rectifier shows voltage "bloom" as it recovers and overshoots. This leads to less defined, slower and "woolly" bass, and less clarity/precision in high frequencies.
- Larger voltage drop across the tube
- Additional heater supply needed

Solid State diode pros:
- Less voltage drop
- No heater supply
- Does not show sag and bloom like tube rectifiers
- If done right: Can design for extremely low power supply noise & better bass and clarity in mids and high frequencies than can be achieved with tube rectification alone

Solid State diode cons:
- Doesn't look as good
- If done wrong: Can cause more transformer ringing, and current spiking/diode switching noise can reverberate throughout the power supply (and into the signal) resulting in a harsher sounding amp

How to do solid state rectification right: Employ RC transformer snubbers for transformer and supply zeta=1 ("critical") damping, use fast soft-recovery diodes (e.g. hexfreds, SiC Schottky's, etc.), bound rectifiers with resistance before and after the diode to decrease current spiking (which can cause supply ringing), and use capacitance multipliers and other Mosfet filtering techniques to bring power supply ripple down to extremely low levels. Also possible to build in soft-start without too much difficulty. An example: Leftside's amp has no electrolytic caps in the high voltage supply (lots of big 85uF oil caps with no electrolytic distortion), and B+ power supply ripple is under 30uV :ksc75smile:

Thank you for your input Mischa, very much appreciated. As I go through this process, I am learning the true challenge of designing an amplifier is the power supply. I am going to take this information and go back to the drawing board, but better to get it right. I need to check my design for low frequency stability among some other concerns I have related to rectifier peak current. Once I have it in a better place, I'll put the circuit through your gamut of tests :)
 
Dec 20, 2019 at 11:40 AM Post #59 of 6,808
Received the EL34 that will be going in this amp today (at least the first pair). They are Philips double-o getter date code XF2 B6A4, got them for a good price.

Everything checks out testing wise. Funny to think how much power is packed into this little guys.

IMAG1514-2.jpg

IMAG1513-2.jpg
 
Dec 20, 2019 at 4:55 PM Post #60 of 6,808
Hey @A2029 , here is the question I mentioned I had for you. I'll explain why these design considerations are important after all the technical chat afterward for others!

I've made some specific design changes to my power supply for this amp, wanted to explain why and get your $0.02 on them. Here is a chicken-scatch schematic of the HT circuit:

IMAG1516.jpg

The first change I made was adding 150ohm resistance between the mains transformer secondary and the rectifier. The U18/20 datasheet states a minimum R-source value of 180ohms for a maximum input capacitor value of 16uF. The secondary resistance of the Lundahl LL1650 mains transformer I plan to use is ~20ohm. I've added this resistor to make up the difference to protect the rectifier and prevent arcing. If I keep it, would not be a 150ohm resistor, more likely two 75ohm, three 50ohm etc. with the appropriate wattage. Probably doesn't need to be quite this high since I am only using a 6.8uF input cap, but just for the sake of the example.

The second change I made was adding some series resistance across both LC filters. I have been using Morgan Jones Valve Amplifiers book as a resource. Following his method (and because I am still working on figuring out some of this functionality in LTSpice), I modeled my power supply in PSUD2 without this resistance added. What I found is there is some minor ringing present. Here is a plot from PSUD2 without any of the added resistance. It is a stepped current load, increasing from 10mA to 160mA at 300ms to elucidate the ringing. May be hard to appreciate here (doing this on my laptop so the plot is a bit squished), but there is ringing on the output in the form of capacitor voltage variations. Note that this is without any "soft-start" enabled. Green is the 65uF cap and blue is the 175uF cap.

Rining 1.png

From reading Valve Amplifiers, I understand that to provide adequate damping of this LC filter ringing, we are targeting a Q factor of 0.5. The formula for Q factor is:

Q = 1/R * sqrt(L/C)

So to provide additional damping, we can 1) increase C 2) increase R or 3) decrease L. Well increasing C is not preferable as these Clarity Caps are already enormous! Likewise, decreasing L is not a great option since I am then loosing valuable ripple filtering. Increasing R seems best and gives me the most bang for my buck. So, by adding 150ohms in series with each LC filter, we get this:

Rining 2.png

Again, might be hard to see, but at least visually, the voltage variation is gone on the output and the ringing appears to be well-damped. Obviously there will be a significant voltage drop from adding these resistors, but this is actually preferable for me as I have a bit too much B+ to work with, getting it down to 240-270V is a good place for where I want to bias the power tubes. The resistance could also be added by getting custom chokes made with a higher DC resistance and max current rating.

So, by adding these resistors before the rectifier and in series with the inductors, I am trying to accomplish the following:

1) protect the rectifier from current spikes, arcing
2) decrease the Q factor of the filter section and damp any ringing
3) drop the B+ to my preferred bias point

Okay, with all of that being said, other than the obvious heat dissipation that will take place in the power supply, do you see any negative consequences of adding this resistance?
 
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