[WhereAretheMIDS]

Hey,
 
Just got the Koss PRO DJ100. My laptop speakers sound better. I run these unamped, and tried them with different devices. It seems that vocals are really far away and too shallow/shy. The highs are really fatiguing as well, I don't know it just feels very bright with vocals being distant and weak. Bass also is a bit too much sometimes. Will this get better with the burn in? I've had these for a day now and I am very disappointed All the $5 headphones I have had sound MUCH better. The sound is detailed I don't deny that but the vocals thing really killed it, in a bad way.
 
Thanks.

 

[KG Jag]

None that I have ever heard sound like that. 
 
Assuming your description of the sound is accurate, you have a defective pair or something is amiss in your audio chain.

 

[WhereAretheMIDS]

The vocals are very weak. It seems the that the whole audio is just treble with weak vocals. It might be defective. Unfortunately, I ordered it to an overseas place so returning it is the last option. Any idea if I could tweak this somehow? Is it possible that I am getting these results because it is unamped?

 

[KG Jag]

  The vocals are very weak. It seems the that the whole audio is just treble with weak vocals. It might be defective. Unfortunately, I ordered it to an overseas place so returning it is the last option. Any idea if I could tweak this somehow? Is it possible that I am getting these results because it is unamped?

 
I doubt it.  With this can under amping means lower volume only.  The sound signature does not change in any material way.

 

[Sleep Mode zZ]

I see three possibilities here:
 
1. You are exaggerating. I have the DJ100 and when I got them I thought that they were very fatiguing. But never would I have said that they were worse than laptop speakers or $5 headphone. They clearly were more "hi-fi" than my Sennheiser PX100, and those also sound much better than any laptop speaker or $5 headphone.
 
2. They are not plugged in properly. With some players with tight headphone sockets (Clip+ and Clip Zip) there are now and then people that get sound but it sounds weak, hollow etc - and the reason is that they only plugged their headphones half way in.
 
3. They are defective. They have a mono/stereo switch but having it accidentally on mono would not result in the kind of sound that you complain of. Probably nobody can help you with this. To fix them, you should first know what exactly is broken. I also think that most broken cables or drivers would result in symptoms like different sound between the drivers, or no sound at all (or intermittent sounds). I don't know what problems could result in just decreased sound quality.

 

[WhereAretheMIDS]

 

   
I doubt it.  With this can under amping means lower volume only.  The sound signature does not change in any material way.
 

Quote:

  I see three possibilities here:
 
1. You are exaggerating. I have the DJ100 and when I got them I thought that they were very fatiguing. But never would I have said that they were worse than laptop speakers or $5 headphone. They clearly were more "hi-fi" than my Sennheiser PX100, and those also sound much better than any laptop speaker or $5 headphone.
 
2. They are not plugged in properly. With some players with tight headphone sockets (Clip+ and Clip Zip) there are now and then people that get sound but it sounds weak, hollow etc - and the reason is that they only plugged their headphones half way in.
 
3. They are defective. They have a mono/stereo switch but having it accidentally on mono would not result in the kind of sound that you complain of. Probably nobody can help you with this. To fix them, you should first know what exactly is broken. I also think that most broken cables or drivers would result in symptoms like different sound between the drivers, or no sound at all (or intermittent sounds). I don't know what problems could result in just decreased sound quality.

Thank you for your time. I doubt that amping would make that big of a difference too.
 
They do seem to be hi-fi but vocals (you guys consider them as mids?) are very weak. If I lower the volume, vocals would also appear even weaker, and bass + highs dominate. They are fully plugged in for sure. To be honest, I do enjoy my laptop speakers a lot more. I might even enjoy my own voice more haha and that's not a good sign. It's a shame because that's the first time I try buying a good quality headphone.
 
I have seen a post describing a mod that would make mids "more forward" as you guys put it. I think that's the only way to go to try to fix this because I won't bother to return it. I also think they match a V frequency curve if you consider vocals as mids and not low frequency. Emphasis on bass and highs. They might be defective but as you said it's very weird that I am getting a totally different signature instead of getting apparent audio issues or no sound at all.

 

[KG Jag]

Yes, most vocals are mids. Properly operating, this is a mid-centric can.

 

[obobskivich]

Random thought: are they in "mono" mode? Could explain some of the bad sound at least. I'd also check the cable - it's removable and may be connected improperly on either side, or itself damaged (its TRS to TRS though, so very easily and cheaply replaced). [Edited: see Sleep Mode zZ's post]

I have the Tony Bennett version of the DJ100 and would not describe them as harsh or overly-bassy. They're a mid-forward/bright can like KG Jag says. If "nothing is working" they may very well be defective.

 

[Sleep Mode zZ]

Random thought: are they in "mono" mode? Could explain some of the bad sound at least. I'd also check the cable - it's removable and may be connected improperly on either side, or itself damaged (its TRS to TRS though, so very easily and cheaply replaced).

The DJ100 does not have a removable cable (unlike the Tony Bennett and DJ200 models).

 

[obobskivich]

The DJ100 does not have a removable cable (unlike the Tony Bennett and DJ200 models).

Really? I did not know that. Good catch there.

 

[WhereAretheMIDS]

Just an update guys. After burning these in for a couple of days, the difference is astonishing. Signature went from following an extreme V shape to an almost neutral shape. Previously, I could not hear vocals at low volume as it was all bass and highs, but now vocals are strong in the whole signature. I think it's still not good enough. The sound is not full and seems rather thin but you can at least listen to them now. They're probably now at least equal to any cheapo headphone but hopefully, this will get better over the next few days. But seriously guys you won't believe the gigantic difference.
 
Please point me to any idiot who says burning in is useless. The difference is JAW DROPPING and I am now interested in finding out the mechanics behind it, it seems that such a difference in sound should only be caused by actual mechanical manipulation. How could playing these for an extended time on some burn in tracks achieve this difference is beyond my comprehension to be honest.w
 
Edit: Haha yes it's on stereo guys, I am not that dull. 
 
Edit 2: I used to have to crank up the 250 hz frequency range just to make these slightly listenable and it wouldn't give that much stronger vocals as they were already extremely weak and maybe non-existent but it made them better. After the burn in, WOW the mids are strong maybe too strong. I got the cranked up 250 hz back to neutral and oh boy the mids sounded just perfect. This is the most objective evidence to me. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL BURN IN EFFECT IN THE PRODJ100. DON'T THROW THESE AWAY IF THEY DON'T WORK FINE AT FIRST.

 

[Sleep Mode zZ]

  Just an update guys. After burning these in for a couple of days, the difference is astonishing. Signature went from following an extreme V shape to an almost neutral shape. Previously, I could not hear vocals at low volume as it was all bass and highs, but now vocals are strong in the whole signature. I think it's still not good enough. The sound is not full and seems rather thin but you can at least listen to them now. They're probably now at least equal to any cheapo headphone but hopefully, this will get better over the next few days. But seriously guys you won't believe the gigantic difference.
 
Please point me to any idiot who says burning in is useless. The difference is JAW DROPPING and I am now interested in finding out the mechanics behind it, it seems that such a difference in sound should only be caused by actual mechanical manipulation. How could playing these for an extended time on some burn in tracks achieve this difference is beyond my comprehension to be honest.w
 
Edit: Haha yes it's on stereo guys, I am not that dull. 
 
Edit 2: I used to have to crank up the 250 hz frequency range just to make these slightly listenable and it wouldn't give that much stronger vocals as they were already extremely weak and maybe non-existent but it made them better. After the burn in, WOW the mids are strong maybe too strong. I got the cranked up 250 hz back to neutral and oh boy the mids sounded just perfect. This is the most objective evidence to me. THERE IS A SUBSTANTIAL BURN IN EFFECT IN THE PRODJ100. DON'T THROW THESE AWAY IF THEY DON'T WORK FINE AT FIRST.

 
I think "burn-in" is a real experience but it is mostly (if not entirely) due to the ears/brain adapting to the new headphone.
 
Suppose that you would just have put your headphones for a few days in a special drawer that, according to many, makes headphones sound better. So, many people, who don't like the first impression of their headphones, puts them in the drawer for a day or two, and then takes a new fresh listen. And, "Holy cow, you won't believe the difference!" is frequently heard.
 
The drawer is truly magical because it almost without exception turns the phones to better phones. If the phones were too bassy for the taste of the listener, the bass got tuned down. If they did not have enough bass, the bass was tuned up in the drawer. And so on, for every possible complaint. A truly magical drawer it is!
 
And furthermore, why won't the manufacturers put their headphones in a special drawer before shipping them to the customers? It would seem like a cheap way to make better headphones. Maybe they tried that but found that it does not work when used at the factory. The special drawer only works its magic when used after the first listen, and it only works for that listener.
 
If customer A sold his "well burnt-in" phones to customer B, customer B would still benefit from putting them into a magical drawer for a day or two. Maybe customer A thought that the phones got too much bass, and used a magical drawer to tune it down. Customer B then finds that the phones do not have enough bass, and the magical drawer now tunes the bass up again. How is that possible?
 
Suppose that the drawer actually does nothing and the whole work of tuning the phones to better match the listener's preferences is done by the ears and brain of the listener. Would not that make more sense? People for some reason find this idea very unintuitive. That is odd because there are people with so much earwax that the frequency response of the ears must be affected, and they won't notice anything because the change was gradual and the ears and brain must have been compensating for it in some way.
 
I actually thought that there was a high possibility that this "burn-in" thing will be happening to you. You didn't mention your previous headphones by name, so I think that you are relatively new to (good) headphones. You say you enjoy your laptop speakers. They for certain will lack bass, and probably also high frequencies. So they are all about the mids, and that is what your ears and brain are adjusted to when it comes to music listening.
 
The Koss DJ100 also does, in my opinion, have some unevenness in their high frequencies, that makes the first listen easily a bit disappointing. It seems that for many (ears and brains) it is possible to adjust (to some degree) to that fault.

 

[WhereAretheMIDS]

   
I think "burn-in" is a real experience but it is mostly (if not entirely) due to the ears/brain adapting to the new headphone.
 
Suppose that you would just have put your headphones for a few days in a special drawer that, according to many, makes headphones sound better. So, many people, who don't like the first impression of their headphones, puts them in the drawer for a day or two, and then takes a new fresh listen. And, "Holy cow, you won't believe the difference!" is frequently heard.
 
The drawer is truly magical because it almost without exception turns the phones to better phones. If the phones were too bassy for the taste of the listener, the bass got tuned down. If they did not have enough bass, the bass was tuned up in the drawer. And so on, for every possible complaint. A truly magical drawer it is!
 
And furthermore, why won't the manufacturers put their headphones in a special drawer before shipping them to the customers? It would seem like a cheap way to make better headphones. Maybe they tried that but found that it does not work when used at the factory. The special drawer only works its magic when used after the first listen, and it only works for that listener.
 
If customer A sold his "well burnt-in" phones to customer B, customer B would still benefit from putting them into a magical drawer for a day or two. Maybe customer A thought that the phones got too much bass, and used a magical drawer to tune it down. Customer B then finds that the phones do not have enough bass, and the magical drawer now tunes the bass up again. How is that possible?
 
Suppose that the drawer actually does nothing and the whole work of tuning the phones to better match the listener's preferences is done by the ears and brain of the listener. Would not that make more sense? People for some reason find this idea very unintuitive. That is odd because there are people with so much earwax that the frequency response of the ears must be affected, and they won't notice anything because the change was gradual and the ears and brain must have been compensating for it in some way.
 
I actually thought that there was a high possibility that this "burn-in" thing will be happening to you. You didn't mention your previous headphones by name, so I think that you are relatively new to (good) headphones. You say you enjoy your laptop speakers. They for certain will lack bass, and probably also high frequencies. So they are all about the mids, and that is what your ears and brain are adjusted to when it comes to music listening.
 
The Koss DJ100 also does, in my opinion, have some unevenness in their high frequencies, that makes the first listen easily a bit disappointing. It seems that for many (ears and brains) it is possible to adjust (to some degree) to that fault.

haha trust me on this. Garbage=Garbage You cannot adjust to garbage. When I compared them to my laptop speakers, I could not hear Taylor swifts voice it was just so far away. When I lowered the volume, her voice was inaudible (seriously zero mids with low volume). Now when I compare them after burning in, mids pop up more than my laptop speakers.
 
Trust me I'm a placebo guy, I am a neurologist I know all about the brain effect and psychological effect. Some patients with somatic disorders improve VASTLY AND ARE ABLE TO WALK AGAIN just by giving them a pill full of water (placebo) because they used to believe they couldn't walk but the pill tricked them into believing they now could (which is the truth as they have nothing wrong with them), that's why we do double blinded controlled studies. This is not the case to be honest. It's not a case of the headphones being the same and I was tricked into believing it was much better.
 
hehe It was a matter of not hearing the singers voice at all and no mids at all(compared them to 2 headphones that I have). After the burn in, these matched all other audio devices. Now there is nothing in the world that I could tell you which would make you believe (And I would do the same if I were in your shoes because I am a scientific guy as you are and I don't believe electronics can drastically change just by playing music into them for a day), but it still happened. Now don't take my word for it as it does not count for sure in a scientific manner, but I am just saying that it did really happen for me. I think you have zero scientific evidence that it does not work at all. I do have zero scientific evidence that it does work. So let's leave it that way and let's leave the choice to people who buy these things.

 

[WhereAretheMIDS]

   
I think "burn-in" is a real experience but it is mostly (if not entirely) due to the ears/brain adapting to the new headphone.
 
Suppose that you would just have put your headphones for a few days in a special drawer that, according to many, makes headphones sound better. So, many people, who don't like the first impression of their headphones, puts them in the drawer for a day or two, and then takes a new fresh listen. And, "Holy cow, you won't believe the difference!" is frequently heard.
 
The drawer is truly magical because it almost without exception turns the phones to better phones. If the phones were too bassy for the taste of the listener, the bass got tuned down. If they did not have enough bass, the bass was tuned up in the drawer. And so on, for every possible complaint. A truly magical drawer it is!
 
And furthermore, why won't the manufacturers put their headphones in a special drawer before shipping them to the customers? It would seem like a cheap way to make better headphones. Maybe they tried that but found that it does not work when used at the factory. The special drawer only works its magic when used after the first listen, and it only works for that listener.
 
If customer A sold his "well burnt-in" phones to customer B, customer B would still benefit from putting them into a magical drawer for a day or two. Maybe customer A thought that the phones got too much bass, and used a magical drawer to tune it down. Customer B then finds that the phones do not have enough bass, and the magical drawer now tunes the bass up again. How is that possible?
 
Suppose that the drawer actually does nothing and the whole work of tuning the phones to better match the listener's preferences is done by the ears and brain of the listener. Would not that make more sense? People for some reason find this idea very unintuitive. That is odd because there are people with so much earwax that the frequency response of the ears must be affected, and they won't notice anything because the change was gradual and the ears and brain must have been compensating for it in some way.
 
I actually thought that there was a high possibility that this "burn-in" thing will be happening to you. You didn't mention your previous headphones by name, so I think that you are relatively new to (good) headphones. You say you enjoy your laptop speakers. They for certain will lack bass, and probably also high frequencies. So they are all about the mids, and that is what your ears and brain are adjusted to when it comes to music listening.
 
The Koss DJ100 also does, in my opinion, have some unevenness in their high frequencies, that makes the first listen easily a bit disappointing. It seems that for many (ears and brains) it is possible to adjust (to some degree) to that fault.

 
And thank you for writing this. I truly enjoyed how you put it. I think it might be worth blogging about it or something as it's a very well written and logical piece. It does make sense to be honest, but it still did not happen for me as the effect was too drastic. It might be that there was some glue or some manufacturing residue on the audio producing part and it just dissipates with use as audio keeps pushing air outside. I am just making this up but there must be something we're missing here.
 
There is also this question of why this happens in a positive direction only as you pointed out in a very smart way. Why does burn-in only achieve the desirable effect. We never hear of anybody who complains of headphones that are "getting really ugly" after burning in for a while. So this is interesting for sure, even in the field of neuroscience.
 
Our brains can adjust to almost anything be it music, or even disease. Some people with glaucoma start losing their peripheral vision but they never really notice and acquire a tunnel vision. So our brains have these capabilities for sure, and I could give you a million examples. Be near a loud construction site with a drilling sound, after a while you brain masks out the annoying sound (free active noise cancellation) and you only realize it was there once it's gone. Floaters for example which are in the vitreous humor of your eyes, you do notice them when you first get them but your brain makes you not notice after a while (even though they actively move in your eyes with movement) so yes our brains can do that. Smell for example, you could adjust to bad smell and no longer smell it (that's why we shower everyday haha)
 
But it still did not happen to me in this case! I believe since you remove headphones, and talk to people for the rest of the day, your brain would not have the chance to adjust permanently to headphones sound. Even if it does, it won't be as drastic as I have noticed. So lets say mids popped up in headphones because my brain made them pop up. So it makes sense that I should hear everybodys voice much louder when i take the phones off as the effect is global. I believe brains do not have enough time to adjust to headphones as we take them off and go interact normally. Even if it adjusts to some frequencies and music styles, which it surely does as you said, I still don't believe it would as drastic as what has happened in my case. Thanks. I really enjoyed the discussion.

 

[WhereAretheMIDS]

Interesting, I found this writtern by a member who bought multiple pairs of Koss prodj100 

 Another negative is that my first pair broke due to my own fault. I bought another and they sounded bad out of the box. The mids were very recessed and they just sounded wrong. The mids are nowhere near being recessed normally. I burned them in and after the 1st night they sounded better, but not quite. On the 3rd night they were perfect and just like my last pair. My first pair didn't seem to need burn-in to sound good.

 
SAME EXACT PROBLEM AS MINE. It seems that this is an isolated problem in the Koss ProDJ100 which gets better with burning-in.