[Contrastique]

I use this knife mostly:

http://www.zwilling.com/locale/en_ww...artikel_id/189

It's not too big or too small. Is perfectly balanced, razorsharp, easy to sharpen, quite flexible (maybe a little too much, that's why I'm loooking for a new one to cut through firm objects). But it's a joy using it.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethelred /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is important as some have stated, the harder the metal (stainless) the more difficult it will be get an edge on it (however, the longer the edge will last). The softer (carbon) the metal the easier to sharpen (as well as easier to lose the edge).

It's the other way around actually......steel is quite soft if it doesn't have much carbon (steel is a mixture of Iron and a small amount of Carbon). In order to harden it, sword makers learned how to combine more alloys to harden the steel and keep it's edge sharper for much longer. All modern day steel has a certain amount of carbon in it, and it starts turning into semantics about how much carbon it takes in order for a batch of steel to be named "carbon steel".

Cheaper knives tend to be stainless and lose their edge very easily, because they are stamped steel with less carbon. The main advantage of stainless steel is it's less likely to tarnish. A good carbon steel blade will maintain an edge, but will start to tarnish after slicing acidic foods or not washing right after use. But cooks don't mind since it's about the usefulness of tool vs looks

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I'm of the camp that uses a paring knife for a utility knife (which honestly only gets used to open the rare foodpackage or remove a lobster rubberband). I don't see the point in buying two seperate 3" blades.

 

[Icarium]

I've been thinking about getting Shun knives or one of the other damascus/faux damascus steel knives because they look cool. How are they as knives? I am a big fan of steel with high carbon content currently, but I've always wanted to own something damascus looking.

 

[Davesrose]

I demoed a few of the Shun knives at my local cooking store. They do seem nice and durable.....but I didn't like the action as much as the Wusthof classic blades. The Wusthof seemed to have the right weight/ curve for me. Some Shun styles have a lot of curve (Alton's Angles....crazy logo!!) and some thick guage steel (pro Debas).....but they're still much lighter compared to the Wusthof. So matter of preference really.

 

[Ethelred]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's the other way around actually......steel is quite soft if it doesn't have much carbon (steel is a mixture of Iron and a small amount of Carbon). In order to harden it, sword makers learned how to combine more alloys to harden the steel and keep it's edge sharper for much longer. All modern day steel has a certain amount of carbon in it, and it starts turning into semantics about how much carbon it takes in order for a batch of steel to be named "carbon steel". Cheaper knives tend to be stainless and lose their edge very easily, because they are stamped steel with less carbon. The main advantage of stainless steel is it's less likely to tarnish. A good carbon steel blade will maintain an edge, but will start to tarnish after slicing acidic foods or not washing right after use. But cooks don't mind since it's about the usefulness of tool vs looks

I'm not really sure what you mean however, I have the feeling and with all respect that you are wrong. Carbon Steel (Iron and Carbon) is soft in comparison to Stainless (Iron, Chromium, Low Percentage of Carbon), and is easier to maintain an edge with (or re-sharpen). The downside to Carbon Steel is that it will tarnish through oxidization and lose it's edge easier. Stainless steel will not tarnish and will keep an edge for longer, however, is harder to re-sharpen. It is the ratios of all the elements that determine what sort of metal classification it is (440c, V3, etc...)

Cheaper knives lose their edge quick because they are stamped. Stamping is the use of using a machine to stamp the blade profile out of a sheet of metal and then it is sharpened. Forged knives are taken from a piece of metal and is then formed and shaped and sharpened from that piece. They are stronger than stamped because much like tempering chocolate forging makes the grains (imagine crystals) flow in the same direction while stamped has them going every which way, like cutting wood it is more difficult to cut across the grain than with it.


In Short:

Stainless = Harder Metal = Longer Edge Life = More Difficult to Sharpen = Will Not Tarnish
Carbon Steel = Softer Metal = Shorter Edge Life = Easier to Sharpen (Sharper Edge) = Oxidizes
High Carbon Stainless Steel = Combines the best traits of each

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife#M...d_construction <-For Reference

I this is all taken from my experience working professionally with knives, as well as my notes from culinary school.

My Knife Bag Contains:
8" Shun Chef <- Will Swap for 10" Wusthof
6" Wusthof Prep
3.5" Wusthof Paring
3.5" Kyocera Ceramic Paring
18" Forschner Carving (Wood Handle)
18" Forschner Bread
12" (I think) Forschner Butcher

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethelred /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not really sure what you mean however, I have the feeling and with all respect that you are wrong.

No, you are the one who is wrong. Read wikipedia again:

Quote:

Carbon steel, an alloy of iron and carbon, can be very sharp, hold its edge well, and remain easy to sharpen, but is vulnerable to rust and stains. Stainless steel is an alloy of iron, chromium, possibly nickel, and molybdenum, with only a small amount of carbon. It is not able to take quite as sharp an edge as carbon steel, but is highly resistant to corrosion.

Wustholf classics are all carbon steel....not just stainless. Why is that?

Quote:

Carbon steel, also called plain carbon steel, is a metal alloy, a combination of two elements, iron and carbon, where other elements are present in quantities too small to affect the properties. The only other alloying elements allowed in plain-carbon steel are manganese (1.65% max), silicon (0.60% max), and copper (0.60% max). Steel with a low carbon content has the same properties as iron, soft but easily formed. As carbon content rises the metal becomes harder and stronger but less ductile and more difficult to weld. Higher carbon content lowers steel's melting point and its temperature resistance in general.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel

In short, Carbon is used to harden steel and help it keep its edge. Stamped steel is stainless because it's softer and more pliable then carbon steel.

 

[jonoliew]

to make it simple. Go japanese tamahagane steel. Possibly the best high carbon steel you can get. Best thing is, they make kitchen knives out of it too. Only problem is they start from 500bucks. lol

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wustholf classics are all carbon steel....not just stainless. Why is that?

And Wusthof Classics aren't exactly that hard. HRC is 52-54, which is well below what modern stainless steels are capable of. ZDP189/Cowry X get up to 66-67 HRC, though 63-64 HRC seems to be more common in chef style knives.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel In short, Carbon is used to harden steel and help it keep its edge. Stamped steel is stainless because it's softer and more pliable then carbon steel.

More proof you can't learn everything from Wikipedia...

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif And Wusthof Classics aren't exactly that hard.

Not sure where you get your average hardness in chef's knives:

http://www.cookingforengineers.com/a...Hardness/print

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvin /img/forum/go_quote.gif More proof you can't learn everything from Wikipedia...

It tends to be a good survey: if not being superficial. I guess metallurgists must all be wrong when they say that carbon is the element they use in alloys for it's hardness and availability:

http://www.thefabricator.com/Metallu...cle.cfm?ID=685

BTW Cowry X knives are extreme examples of very high carbon, steel alloy blades: 3% carbon

Sure they spent some time in development so that it wouldn't be too brittle and have some flexibility/temperature resistance.

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/KDSeries.html

 

[Ethelred]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif No, you are the one who is wrong. Read wikipedia again:

I'm going to call this pointless like arguing with a wall...I will agree to disagree as there is no point in the whole world to argue with one who will not change their opinion (no matter how wrong), over a keyboard.

I get my information from my schooling and the professional experience. You are what? An artist? Next?


Quote:

Wustholf classics are all carbon steel....not just stainless. Why is that?

Check the blade for the material it is made of. Looking at mine in front of me...I see Chromium on it as well as Vanadium. It's a stainless steel forged blade.


Quote:

In short, Carbon is used to harden steel and help it keep its edge. Stamped steel is stainless because it's softer and more pliable then carbon steel.

Once again forged and stamped are not blade materials so much as production methods.

My point is that carbon steel blades will lose their edge quicker than a stainless steel blade. However, carbon steel will gain it back, through sharpening, a lot easier than stainless.

 

[aych]

affordable and good i'd go with the henkels master series. its a yellow plastic handled one, relatively cheap for the quality and I love the round handles.

 

[Davesrose]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethelred /img/forum/go_quote.gif I get my information from my schooling and the professional experience. You are what? An artist? Next?

I take it you've never taken a metal class, and a cook is not a chemist. I have taken several welding classes: of which you do find out about metal alloys.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethelred /img/forum/go_quote.gif Check the blade for the material it is made of. Looking at mine in front of me...I see Chromium on it as well as Vanadium. It's a stainless steel forged blade. Once again forged and stamped are not blade materials so much as production methods.

Read my above link about carbon content in steel again please!!! Stainless steel that's machined and not forged has lower carbon content so that it's softer

Wusthof stainless steel has a medium carbon content (.5%). Not nearly as high as those Cowry X knives (at 3%, that's insane!!!

).

A steel alloy that has a carbon content of >.3 is considered to have above average carbon content, and need more special treatments when manufacturing. You'll see that all stamped stainless steel metal is well below .3% carbon. High carbon content is stronger, but less malleable and more brittle.

http://www.wusthof.com.au/features_a...30B8C795AC69FC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ethelred /img/forum/go_quote.gif My point is that carbon steel blades will lose their edge quicker than a stainless steel blade. However, carbon steel will gain it back, through sharpening, a lot easier than stainless.

And my point has been that carbon has always been an element used in alloys to harden them. It has always been used to increase the tensile strength of steel, but its main drawbacks are lower temperature resistance and greater corrosion. It helps keep edge sharpness because of its tensile strength.

Now you want to tell me why the author of my link, a fabricator himself, is wrong in stating that carbon hardens steel? Even your wikipedia links say that carbon is used as a hardener!!!

http://www.thefabricator.com/Metallu...cle.cfm?ID=685

 

[marvin]

To the OP: Old Hickory makes good carbon steel knives for very reasonable prices. They're don't have the greatest ergos and don't look very good unless you're into the whole rustic mountain man thing. But they can get very sharp, sharpen easily, and are inexpensive to boot. A five piece kitchen set is ~ $25.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif Read my above link about carbon content in steel again please!!! Stainless steel that's machined and not forged has lower carbon content so that it's softer Wusthof stainless steel has a medium carbon content (.5%). Not nearly as high as those Cowry X knives (at 3%, that's insane!!! ). A steel alloy that has a carbon content of >.3 is considered to have above average carbon content, and need more special treatments when manufacturing. You'll see that all stamped stainless steel metal is well below .3% carbon. High carbon content is stronger, but less malleable and more brittle. http://www.wusthof.com.au/features_a...30B8C795AC69FC

Well, 0.5% carbon really isn't that much compared to a whole lot of modern stainless steels. While ZDP189/Cowry X and other powder steels aren't good representatives of your average stainless knife material, stainless steels like VG-10, ATS-34, S30V, and CM-154 are and all have carbon content of ~ 1%.

As for as all stamped blades being low carbon, that isn't completely true either. Sandvik 12C27 is pretty good blade material, can be stamped, and has a carbon content of .6%. Also some excellent carbon steels including 1095 (~ .95% carbon) and the vaunted Japanese white steel (~1.4% carbon) can be stamped. Either way, modern metallurgy (and by modern I mean in the last hundred years or so...) has removed pretty much any advantage forging has over stamping.

Stamped stainless does have a pretty bad rep though, since at the low end, you're messing around with 420 and it's friends or 440A with a crappy heat treat. Compared 1095 (as found in the inexpensive Old Hickory knives mentioned above), stainless performance in that class is pretty dire.

And really, we're running into terminology issues here.

Hardness indicates how well the blade can resist deformation. Wear resistance indicates how fast the blade wears. This is related to hardness as measured by the RC scale, but not exactly the same. Toughness is how well the blade can resist breaking, this attribute generally trades off with hardness.

And of course, the ever elusive edge holding which is a combination of the three factors depending on what you're cutting.

As for the stuff in steel, carbon may be the primary element used to harden steel, but chromium adds to wear resistance. Because of this, while carbon steels can generally be brought up to higher hardness levels than stainless steels, stainless steels are generally more wear resistant. This leads to the general stereotype in the knife using population that while carbon steels take an edge better, but stainless steels hold their edge better.

 

[Davesrose]

You're still taking extreme examples Marvin

The overall points of what wikipedia was saying is true. Carbon hardens steel....stainless steel with more carbon makes a stronger steel. Sure, blade manufacturers can find more alloys to change the overall properties.....but we're talking in generalities here

Apart from Japanese stainless cutlery that has well over 1.5% carbon, average industrial stainless steel applications have way less carbon content. Excluding special alloys, steels normally stay below .35%

http://www.key-to-steel.com/Articles/Art62.htm