King of the Universal Players?

[Wodgy]

LeasingGuy, I'd be interested in hearing more of your comments about the Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi when you get around to it. I've been considering its two sister players (the lower-cost DV47A and DV49AI) since they also seem to use the same new Advanced Segment DACs from Burr-Brown.

 

[Welly Wu]

I just checked out the Pioneer Elite 59AVi universal player specifications. It is certainly a good machine for the money but I really do need DVD + / - R/RW read capabilities and a HDCD decoder chip as I have both the Plextor PX-708UF DVD +/- R/RW burner and HDCDs. That settles it. I'm saving up for the Denon DVD 5900. Of course, if anything comes down the pipe between now and May 2004 that equals or bests the Denon DVD 5900 for $1000 USD, then it is mine!

 

[Wodgy]

Keep in mind that if you insist on HDCD decoding, you're insisting on the Pacific Microsonics digital filter chip, or one of the limited number of DAC chips which support HDCD natively. The Pacific Microsonics digital filter was once awesome, but now it's just mediocre in terms of sound quality. (Ever since being bought by Microsoft they haven't done any hardware innovation.) The full list of DAC chips which support it is here:
http://www.hdcd.com/partners/tech_partners/index.html
IMHO none of these are particularly top-of-the-line DACs.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to insist on a lower-quality Redbook DAC just so you can play HDCDs.

 

[Welly Wu]

Wodgy:

Don't take this the wrong way, but what is your opinion about all of the audio / video DACs on the Denon DVD 5900? How do you compare it against the Pioneer Elite DV-59Ai? By the way, does the latter player support both DVD + / - R/RW formats?

 

[markl]

Do any of today's HDCD machines still use the Pacific Microsonics chip? My understanding is that most of today's chips simply handle HDCD the same way they do Dolby Digital or DTS, it's just another decoding algorithm. Only reason that all chips in all DVD/CD players don't support it is probably due to licensing fees, not technology.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Do any of today's HDCD machines still use the Pacific Microsonics chip? My understanding is that most of today's chips simply handle HDCD the same way they do Dolby Digital or DTS, it's just another decoding algorithm. Only reason that all chips in all DVD/CD players don't support it is probably due to licensing fees, not technology.

As far as I know, all of today's HDCD machines still use the Pacific Microsonics chip (or one of the ones mentioned in the link I posted, though I doubt any of those are used in high-end gear). HDCD decoding is done at the digital filter stage, which is separate from any DSP (the digital filter is part of the DAC). The couple exceptions are devices that use an integrated DSP+DAC (i.e. a DSP and a DAC on a single chip, as listed in the link I posted). Most high-end gear uses separate DSP and DAC chips, for obvious quality reasons.

IMHO, things move quickly in the digital realm, and persisting in using a chip designed five years ago (the PMD200) is a mistake for engineers looking to maximize sound quality. This is why I doubt any of the future "universal" players will support HDCD, especially not two or five years from now.

 

[Wodgy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Welly Wu Don't take this the wrong way, but what is your opinion about all of the audio / video DACs on the Denon DVD 5900? How do you compare it against the Pioneer Elite DV-59Ai? By the way, does the latter player support both DVD + / - R/RW formats?

I don't know what's in the Denon DVD-5900 and haven't heard it. All I meant to say was that it might be a good idea to audition universal players from all the major vendors -- don't tie yourself down to HDCD, because then you're tying yourself to a specific chipset, and who knows, you might prefer the sound quality of a different chipset.

I don't know much about the DV-59Ai. However, I do know that the DV-45A and DV-47Ai (but NOT the older DV-47A) use the Burr-Brown PCM1738, which is a very recent high-end DAC chip. The only audio-related difference between the DV-45A and DV-47Ai is the latter has upsampling that you can optionally turn off, as well as four choices for the upsampling filter algorithm. Otherwise, they're identical in terms of audio hardware. Here's a good link with details of the innards of both:
http://www.tweakaudio.com/Pioneer%2045A-47Ai.html
It's a mod site, but if you scroll down, there are useful hardware details.

Edit: The DV-45A and DV-47Ai support DVD-RW, but not DVD+RW.

 

[kuma]

• Esoteric UX1

• Goldmund Eidos 18

• Bel Canto

...and which one would take the 'king on universal' player is anybody's guess.

but knowing Esoteric's transport making history, UX1 shoud sound pretty decent is my guess.

 

[immtbiker]

I have both the Pioneer Elite DV-47AI which I believe was replaced by the Pioneer Elite DV-59Ai, and the Teac Esoteric DV-50, and while there is a considerable difference in price, the Esoteric blows away everything I've compared it to, including the Linn. The Redbook on the Esoteric made the Wadia 861, sound pale in comparison, and that's a dedicated CD player. It upsamples (except SACD, which is pure output) to:
24bit 1536 Khz, no joke.

 

[kuma]

Quote:

Originally posted by immtbiker the Esoteric blows away everything I've compared it to, including the Linn. The Redbook on the Esoteric made the Wadia 861, sound pale in comparison, and that's a dedicated CD player.

immtbiker,

I am curious of your impression between Linn, Wadia and Esoteric.

Particularly Wadi 861, if I remember correctly, it also uses Teac VRDS transport.

Linn, I assume would sound different from rest of 'em. I've heard the Unidisk in friends system and even tho hard to tell what's what, it sounded lot diffrent from the rest of hi-res. pack. I am not sure better per se. Different is more like it.

 

[Welly Wu]

Are you guys saying that I'm not necessarily making the best decision to get a replacement source component? In other words, is it a smart decision to go ahead with a universal source component? Also, is the Denon DVD 5900 the best one out there on the market as of today? While I could easily afford to spend $1500 USD on a universal component source that will come out on the next few months which proves to be the "best," I'd rather take that extra $500 USD and put it toward my competitive shooting career. So, I'm thinking that I'd wait for the price of the Denon DVD 5900 to come down to $1000 USD (used) and just be content with it. Unless, there is akiller universal source component that comes to market in a jiffy...whadjathink?

 

[lextek]

I am also interested in a universal player to replace my aging Sony DVP-s7000. Wondering how the Denon DVD-2900 would compare. This is in my HT set-up.
The Esoteric looks sweet, but $5000 is too much for me.

 

[Welly Wu]

Lextex:

I got the Denon DVD 2900 right now and I think it is quite nice being that it is only my second source component. Redbook playback is good and it is on par with the NAD C 541i HDCD player (though it lacks the HDCD decoder chip). SACD playback is very good: warm, natural, and effortless. DVD-Audio playback is excellent; both the Denon DVD 2900 and especially the 5900 excel with the DVD-Audio format. DVD-Video playback is spectacular on my craptacular 10 year old TV. Images are very film like and colors are accurate while the images are sharp and clear. I think you can get a refurbished Denon 2900 for $513 USD on http://www.ecost.com but you have to be patient. Otherwise, look around for deals. It really is a nice universal, one box solution. If you're patient, I'd sell you mine once I definitely get the Denon DVD 5900; hopefully, we can talk business sometime around April - May 2004!

 

[lextek]

Thanks for the info. I don't think I can wait til April. I've seen a few on Audiogon around $700. Maybe I'll grab one.

 

[markl]

Welly, IIRC, you were very pleased with the Denon 2900. If you go with the 5900, seems like it would be the same thing only better. In other words, retain all the things you like about 2900 but expand on them. Another player may excel in some areas, fall short in others, and just be plain "different" than the 2900.

If you wait and go with a new player at full price, yes the DAC set might be better, but overall build quality on all the other aspects of the player (analog section, transport, power supply, etc.) might not be as good as a heavily discounted 5900.

More food for confusion...