[stiltzkin]

Greetings!

This is my first post here, so apologies if this is an oft-asked question.
I've just made my first investment in true high-quality headphones - I bought the pair of K701s I've been coveting for the past 3 years.

First, let me just say, I think this is the best $260 I've ever spent. I love music, plain and simple - and I especially love laid-back, analytical listening, the kind you do in an empty room with the lights off and no distractions. Exactly what the K701s seem to be so perfectly suited to. Every new song is a fresh sonic adventure, and hearing the tiniest of details in songs I've heard a thousand times is even more astounding. On top of that they're ridiculously comfortable, so comfortable in fact that it's easy to forget I have them on after a little while. Maybe this sounds cheesy - but the music streaming out of these things sounds so vivid that it just becomes reality. Demands attention. And they aren't even broken in yet.

But enough gushing - all this you know.

My question - and I hope I can get a straight answer to this - is in regards to amping these bad boys. I've read the "too many people here buy great headphones and crappy/no amps" thread many times; enough to feel guilty about driving them from my sound card for the time being. But hear me out - this was a sizable purchase for me, and the first one of its kind; I simply couldn't purchase the 'phones and an "appropriate" amp for them at the same time. I have every intention of eventually buying something worthy of their quality - and that's what I'd love to hear your opinion on.

As I said, the detail I'm getting out of them right now is fabulous, to my ears. Even with the volume turned up to 100%, my sound card makes no audible hiss whatsoever. I can't hear electrical interference of any kind no matter what I'm doing on the computer. I take these as good signs that at least I don't have a horrible main source. My collection is FLAC audio files - mostly jazz, acoustic, electronic, and a little progressive rock.

So my question is, what should I be saving up for? Would I benefit from a DAC as well as an amp, even though my card sounds pristine? I've seen lots of amp recommendation threads for the 701s, but it's hard to gauge what I really need from so much information. I don't want to spend more than about what I paid for the cans themselves (although I might, if there's really a tremendous benefit), and I don't think I need something like a 50-lb tube amp encased in solid silver and Ethiopian sheepskin, either - I love high-end audio but I'm a pragmatist as well.

Thanks for all your help, head-fiers! I'm looking forward to many years of listening.

 

[SanJoseCanJunkie]

An amp is more important than a DAC for you right now, but I will say that it was a huge difference for me when I got my DAC v. the sound card (although I had an amp first).

As for what amp, I'm afraid I don't have the experience to help you, except to say that something like a Total Bithead isn't enough for the headphones (by comparison to a MicroAmp).

 

[the_equalizer]

Well, first of all, congratulations on your purchase! It is certainly nice to get something you've been wanting for some time.

Moving on to the amp, you should really not feel any guilt

it all comes down to what you like and enjoy. If you enjoy your headphones so much without an amp... well.. congratulations and keep on doing it!

Of course, I understand you're probably thinking "but what if they sound so much greater with an amp?". All I can say is, if at all possible, try one. Maybe in a local audio store, maybe a friend's amp, maybe you can go to a headphone meet, etc. Then you'll hear for yourself if an amp makes a difference to you and you should buy one to increase the enjoyment of your cans.

As to specific amp recommendations you'll get lots of different ones: some love them with pure solid state amps (the Heed CanAmp is a common recommendation), some say all-tube amps are better for them, some say hybrids are best.

While I've yet to try them with a nice solid-state amp, I can say that hybrids do a great job with the 701s. In my opinion the Millett "Starving Student" hybrid is the best under $200 USD amp you can get for these headphones with power to spare, tubey mids and slamming if slightly sloppy bass. I also use them with a Millet MiniMAX hybrid and it's great too; more refined and transparent than the "Starving Student" with precise bass punch. Finally I also use them with a Woo Audio WA6 which also works great with them; sounds less tight than the MiniMAX, more airy and with smoother highs.

Again, congrats on your purchase and enjoy your headphones!

 

[Ypoknons]

From what I've read there's a difference between distortion that comes in the from clicks, pops and ground noise and signal deterioration, which isn't distinctly audible per se but nevertheless, is distorted as the signal sounds different than it should.

 

[dBs]

Since it sounds like money is an issue for you, I would consider a decent DAC+amp combination. You will get good performance from it and probably be able to use the DAC down the road when you do get a better amp.

Think something like the Compass (though it's no longer available). I was in a similar situation as you with my 650s (and just as gushy over them, hahaha). I thought they sounded good with my sound card, I thought the background noise was already really small. I got the Compass and I realized just how much a noise floor there really was present in my XFi audio card. The noise floor is one of the types of noise that the human ear adapts to easily and quickly, so you tend to only really notice it when it's GONE.

I have recently been able to move to a better amp, but I am planning to design my first amp so I don't have the money for a new DAC just yet. As I bought a decent DAC+amp combo though I still can take advantage of having at least a decent DAC as well as an amp that has a completely different sound from my new amp so I can enjoy two amps still.

It's just my opinion, but that's what I would do.

Like the avatar BTW.

 

[stiltzkin]

Thanks for the input so far, everyone! As I said, I'm very satisfied for the time being, but I'm thinking long-term, if I can really unlock the potential of these headphones even more with a great amp, I want to do it. A friend of mine who has K701s powers them with a Denon reciever, I believe. He claims there's a big difference in quality compared to direct sound card, but then again he has a MacBook - which from my understanding has a rather dismal card in it. And he also prefers vinyl over digital. So to each his own...

For reference, my headphone port is handled by an ATI Radeon HD4650 GPU - this card also does audio because it has an HDMI port with Dolby 7.1. Since it's a discrete component, I'm thinking that has something to do with the better quality. Obviously there'd be a higher potential for interference if the port was just soldered onto the motherboard.

 

[Ypoknons]

Discrete in a computer sense, that is on a separate board, is not the same as a discrete in the audio sense, a separate case. Whilst I think it is possible to have a well designed one box integrated, a computer housing is not optimized for the isolation of analogue signals, no offense to your computer. In addition, in audio after the DAC we're dealing with analogue signals, not digital, which are suspectible to such interference. Also, your sound card draws power from your PSU, and many computer PSUs are subject to power ripples - see some DIY threads for talk about this.

At any rate, the talk of discrete versus integrated is not key when because amplifiers are about powering headphones i.e. using electricity from a power source to strengthen the weak analogue signal from a DAC to one that can move the drivers in the headphone. A video card with headphone out has a chip inside that does the amplifying, but it it is probably not a great chip. The better opamps, discrete circuits or tubes in a dedicated amplifier probably do a much better of job of amplification. Frankly, I honestly don't think your sound card can do anything close to as good a job a receiver when powering headphones. It's not just the DAC.

Before proceeding further, I would recommend that you research the respective purposes of an amplifier and a digital analogue converter.

 

[stiltzkin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ypoknons /img/forum/go_quote.gif Frankly, I honestly don't think your sound card can do anything close to as good a job a receiver when powering headphones. It's not just the DAC.

Well of course it can't; I knew that already. My point was just that it sounds a heck of a lot better to me than most other sound cards I've heard with headphones - particularly because I can't hear background noise and other interference. Then again, if I were to only buy an amp, maybe I would hear those imperfections - after all the K701s are supposed to be "revealing" of your source, from what I've read. So your suggestion would be to get an amp and a USB DAC to avoid the sound card?

I'm going to have to find someone with a good headphone setup, or at least a well-equipped audio store, to hear some of these pathways myself. I know a lot of it comes down to personal preference; I'm just interested in what your experiences and opinions have led you to buy/recommend.

As a sidenote, what do you think of the Fiio E7? On paper it has plenty of power for these, and the reviews I've seen have been mostly good. I just wouldn't want to take a step backwards.

 

[Ypoknons]

The problem is, revealing source imperfections or not, my view is that doesn't matter until the K701 gets enough juice. Fiio E7 - Another battery powered amp. Prima facie bad, I haven't heard it though. I don't see how it could be powerful enough - 150mW into 16 Ohm, 16mW into 300 Ohm... I don't have the precise calcs but I've mostly tried much more powerful desktop amps... Weak amps like my Icon's HP out sound quite bad.

Yes, I've been amp shopping lately. I don't know - I would think some in the class of the Audio GD Fun (I've heard the predecessor the Compass, it was 'ok') should the trick on a budget... otherwise pay out for the Burson or a Meier Concerto.

 

[avocado]

I have the exact same dilemma as you, in regards that I have a tight budget to get an amp for my K701s. From what I've seen, the Audio-GD Fun has just had a price drop to $190, and that the Audio-GD Sparrow ($125) is going to start shipping next week. I emailed the guy there, and he said that they both are well matched to the K701.

I'm still thinking about the amp situation, and have spent a lot of time browsing the For Sale forums to see if anything good pops up. Or I might just beg my parents for their vintage receiver and attempt to use that in the interim, either works

 

[Ypoknons]

Yep - used or DIY can be great ways to go - actually, in theory, since I just realized I've done neither. Well I had a friend build me a Cmoy once. Ugh. Shouldn't be giving advice like this.

 

[MomijiTMO]

I did have go through 3 amps, a v-dac and an ASUS STX when I had my K701. It got a hell of a lot better with some of those but it depends on whether you'll notice a difference or not. I hate to say it but some people really can't tell the difference :|.

 

[beamthegreat]

If you can build your own amp, I highly recommend you to build the M3 amp. Its one of the best amplifier in the world and you're probably wont get any amp that is better than this even for 1k -2k$

 

[Chuke]

On the cheap, I vote for the Little Dot 1+ hybrid. This amp seemed to be the cheap FOTM amp for 701s when I owned mine about 2 years ago. From what I remember, it did a fairly reasonable job for a $150 product...and I never got into rolling tubes.

Plus, the tubes look cool glowing in the dark....

 

[zdkaiser]

I say buy the Maverick D1 Tubemagic AMP/DAC. The best bang for your buck, no doubt.

I love mine with my AKG K702s and the unit is only $200. Plus you can use the computer through the 24bit/96khz DAC via USB as well. Plus you can hook up all kinds of other gadgets (PS3/Stereo/DVD Player/Bluray/etc.)

I think it is a no brainer.

I am running a Denon SACD/DVD-A player>optical cable>Maverick D1>AKG K702s.

or

Laptop>USB>Maverick D1>AKG K702s.

The Maverick has more than enough juice to power the AKGs and I think it does it with great synergy. $200 well spent in my eyes.

Maverick Audio - Tube Magic D1 DAC Hardware Specifications