[High_Q]

DP.

 

[High_Q]

Quote:

You need both.. good AMP and DAC. Its called synergy.. 

I agree with this, but not about the bad phones.  The reason why I say get good amp first is because I don't see the point of getting good DAC first if a bad amp will make the whole setup sound like crap.
 

 

[Sonic 748i]

Ears > Source Material > Headphones > DAC = AMP > Cables. In matter of importance.

 

[Jaska]

I'm going to agree with those who cite your ThinkPad as the weak link in your setup. I, too, have a ThinkPad, and while it's a great box of hardware for business computing, it's probably got the worst-sounding headphone output I've heard from a computer. Playing HDCDs in Windows Media Player and listening with my Grado SR-225s sounded infinitely worse than listening to 128 kbps files of the same music out of the headphone jack of my iPod 5G. Moving over to my Mac and using my Apogee Duet and Gilmore Lite, or even the headphone out from the Duet, put the headphones on an entirely different planet.
 
While you've still got the headphones, what I'd suggest is packing them up along with a couple of your favorite CDs and visiting a friend with any type of home setup (e.g. CD player and integrated amp, etc.) and listening to your headphones the "proper" way. If I were a betting man, I'd say you'll be surprised at what a difference it makes. Headphone amps are important for headphones like the HD 650, but when people use laptop headphone outputs and portable players as sources, the payoff is almost entirely unappreciable.

 

[High_Q]

^Good points.  Didn't realize he was outputting from a thinkpad, I was looking at his signature and was assuming he was using his uDAC.  I have a thinkpad also, and the built in amp is not that great, that should be your weak link in the chain. Use you uDAC to bypass your internal DAC and amp. I would suggest this setup:
 
computer -> udac -> Amp -> HD650

 

[Shahrose]

Quote:

^Good points.  Didn't realize he was outputting from a thinkpad, I was looking at his signature and was assuming he was using his uDAC.  I have a thinkpad also, and the built in amp is not that great, that should be your weak link in the chain.  try outputting through udac. I would suggest this setup:
computer -> udac -> Amp -> HD650

That's exactly my point High_Q. Your post about investing in a better amp in the context of the OP's post wasn't prudent I thought, considering the amp he already has. Clearly, it's his source that's limiting his setup right now. Out of the laptops in my house (three), the HD650s sound boomy, uncontrolled and veiled.

 

[Ro-amp]

 
Quote:

Quote:

OP, I hear the same thing as you...flabby & muffled, I removed the earpad foam not much of a change, I'm selling them.
Headphones makes the biggest difference in sound, if they don't sound right to you from the start, move on, don't waste time & money!
My SHR840 are such a great can, I'm looking for the equivalent open can for classical & jazz listening, I honestly don't know where to go from here, DT880, HD595, HD600, AKG 702???
Good luck
Cheers

Sorry, but higher end (or high-end) headphones always need burn-in, for example AKG 702/701 needs LOADs of burn-in to sound good. There is only few headphones from higher-end that sounds good at first listening.

Sorry but they have been burned in for at least 200hrs (I don't believe in burn-in, I believe at the earing/brain getting adjusted to the new sound)
I came to the same conclusion playing materials (FLAC/CD's) trough DVD player/HT receiver/laptop/ipod Denon dock/UCA202/Cute beyond/Fubar IV SE in any possible combination...
And you know what...They still sounded the same no matter what, bloated bass with veiled highs...

 

 

[Mescalamba]

Than is maybe mistake somewhere else.. I had them and I wouldnt say bloated bass nor veiled highs.. veil disappeared after week or so.. bass remained massive as from start. Have you tried pluging it simply to iPod (just iPod).

 

[The Fire Snake]

First thing, thanks for all the great posts.  They have been a huge help.  To clear up some confusion.  I have been using my Thinkpad T500 laptop as the source using a 3.5mm to rca cable to my amp and then plugging into the amp with my HD650. After head injury told me that wasn't the best(i.e. amped signal to an amp) and that my source(probably does not contain a great dac) was my limiting factor by other members here, I bought a uDac.  I just got the udac today and am now going from my T500 to the Udac and then from the udac to my amp.  I will post my impressions of what I feel with the introduction of the uDac in a few days after I have had some time to listen to my music.  Hopefully the uDac is good enough for me to get a good idea of how the HD650's sound along with ohter cans.  All my comments below are NOT using my uDac.

@MomijiTMO - I agree with your adjective, "broken".  That is what they sound like. 

@High_Q - Yes, the amp has a gain setting.  I had it on the lower gain at first but I had to crank the volume knob up high to get enough volume.  So I increased the gain and the volume setting seems ok.

Overall I am at the stage where I am trying a bunch of different equipment to get an idea of what I like.  Once I know what I like then I will pretty much settle on the gear.  I will definetly get a good source, dac, amp and cans.  My goal is to assemble a little "test" system to be able to get an idea of what different cans sound like.  Hopefully my gear right now fits this purpose?  I hope you guys understand what I am trying to do.  If I can get to a canjam/meet that would be great, but right now I can't get to one and there are all crappy walmart type stores here; can't hear anything good.

 

[Mochan]

I started with the M50 myself and from there went to the DT770 Premium 250. It was a huge diff to be honest. Soundstage was a lot wider. I'm a bit surprised you weren't able to detect a soundstage diff with the HD650. While the HD650 doesn't have a big soundstage, it's still significantly bigger than the M50's which have a really tiny soundstage. Soundstage though is a tricky thing to listen for and I still get confused listening for it to this day.
 
But going from the M50 to the DT770 was such a big diff in soundstage that there was no doubt within me as to which had the bigger one. The level of clarity on the DT770 was also on another level because of the crisp highs. 
 
Anyway good luck on your journey, I do suggest you get a good setup of amps and dacs unlike me, I just fritted from headphone to headphone and am only now really starting to build a full system. I think on this journey when you are comparing headphones you will get better results with a good chain first and adding headphones to the end afterwards. Wish I'd learned that when I first started out!
 

 

[The Fire Snake]

Well guys I wanted to report back.  I have been using my HD650 using my uDac.  It has made a HUGE difference, the HD650's sound very very very nice now.  The difference is very noticible from using the crappy laptop dac to the udac, not a small placebo type thing.  The HD650s reveal a lot more details in the music, the bass is more controlled and very tight.  A definite improvement.   BUT.....
 
After using the uDac the first thing I noticed is that the HD650's sound very dry and analytical.  They are revealing all kind of detail but my music for some reason sounds boring to listen to.  I don't know why.  The highs are clear, mids are good and bass is more than enough for me, but with the music I am listening to it just doesn't involve me into the music.  I am listening mainly to progressive house music.  Now I know that a lot of people recommend cans for electronic music by the bass, but the bass on the HD650 is more than enough for me while listening to electronic music.  The reason I went for the HD650 is for the detail they reveal in the music.  I thought with this detail and bass, it would sound awesome.  While is sounds good, I am not excited to listen to music.  In contrast I look forward to using my M50s every day.  Progressive house music has a lot of little details in the background like voices, wispers an other ambiant noises in addition to a lot of bass.  So I figured that the HD650, oddly enough,  might fit the bill.  I guess not ?  I can say a couple of other things too.  The HD650's don't seem to scale down at all with the equipment, meaning that they sound terrible with bad to ok equipment and sound really good with better equipment.  Also they seem to want a LOT of power.  I could probably use a more powerful amp with these no problem, they would just eat up the power.  Lastly the HD650's are my first open back headphones and I can't really tell the difference between them and closed cans.  I thought I would be able to easily, but that doesn't seem to be the case.  The sound stage seems the same size as my M50s.  Maybe when I listen to more cans my brain will be able to pick up this difference.
 
I want to hear more of your comments.

 

[Noobiiee]

 
 
Quote:

After using the uDac the first thing I noticed is that the HD650's sound very dry and analytical

 
I disagree... First, to my ears the uDac adds a bit more thump to the mid-bass. That plus the dark sound of HD650 can't turn into anything near "dry and analytical". If the HD650 is dry and analytical, I'd be thrilled to see your impression of the K701 or DT880. These are the cans that you should pick if you want details and revealing. Or at least the HD600 would fit the bill better than the HD650. About the bass, I feel the HD650's bass to be more natural than the M50's, which sounds rather artificial to my ears (well electronica bass is artificial bass so.....). 
 
The M50 seems to be in fashion in Head-fi at the moment but I don't see the point of comparing them to cans in higher league like HD650, DT880, K701. They are made for totally different purposes and sold for different prices. 
 
 
Quote:

Lastly the HD650's are my first open back headphones and I can't really tell the difference between them and closed cans.  I thought I would be able to easily, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

 
Erm... try "open vs closed" in head fi search tab. 

 

[RickEC]

HD650 scales wonderfully with cable upgrades. Soundstage, clarity, separation and what have you, improve across the board. The drivers of the HD650 are of high quality, but they are under-performing with the stock cable. Don't take my words, you need to hear them yourself.

 

[Mochan]

 
 
Quote:

 
 
 
I disagree... First, to my ears the uDac adds a bit more thump to the mid-bass. That plus the dark sound of HD650 can't turn into anything near "dry and analytical". If the HD650 is dry and analytical, I'd be thrilled to see your impression of the K701 or DT880. . 

Have you actually heard the HD650 with the uDAC?
 
 
I got to play with the uDAC for a short while with the K701. My impression of the uDAC is that it is quite bright. Not sure if it was warm or cold, but it had horrible synergy with the K701. 
 
When I get my uDAC on Wednesday I will try it with my HD650. Until then I can't really say much more. But I wouldn't be surprised if the HD650 became boring with the uDAC. the uDAC certianly did not do anything for the K701.
 
 
On Progressive House... yeah I listen to Hed Kandi and a bunch of other stuff a lot, and I definitely enjoy them with the HD650. Really nice, but I think for this kind of music the DT770 is slightly better. But the HD650 is no slouch. The bass is good enough. The real problem I think is that you are not driving them properly. The uDAC from my estimate probably can't drive the HD650 at all well. They certainly didn't have enough for the Mios (K701). 
 
You need a nice beefy amp methinks.
 
Regarding soundstage, and open/close, yeah again I felt the HD650 had larger soundstage. But not by much. M50 has really tiny soundstage though, no way around it. As for the sound diff between open and close, well, I really don't think there's that big a diff other than in isolation. There is no "open sound" and no "closed sound" per se, just that being open or closed tends to influence how the headphones sound, but the actual sound will still depend on the headphone. For instance, while open generally means larger soundstage, I found the closed DT770 had more soundstage than the open PX100.
 
 
 

 

[Noobiiee]

 
Quote:

 Have you actually heard the HD650 with the uDAC?  
 
I got to play with the uDAC for a short while with the K701. My impression of the uDAC is that it is quite bright. Not sure if it was warm or cold, but it had horrible synergy with the K701. 

 
Errmmmm... A/B it with my Aundinst, the Aundist sounded more neutral and clearer.