[Coltrane]

Relegated to dental offices.

And no.

 

[Kees]

Jazz lives.

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jazz lives.

Nuff said.

 

[Faust2D]

Jazz is in convolutions, it's been trying reinvent itself for 40 years now.

It was old and dying and needed new body parts, so it took them from rock, metal, grind-core, classical music, electronic music and mutated into a new franken-jazz beast. Just listen to John Zorn or Peter Brotzman you will see what I mean. Jazz is evolving like crazy and surprisingly, in my opinion, is becoming even more exiting now.

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just listen to John Zorn or Peter Brotzman you will see what I mean. Jazz is evolving like crazy and surprisingly, in my opinion, is becoming even more exciting now.

I agree with the premise ("Jazz is evolving like crazy…"), but not the specifics. People tend to assign innovation to Zorn, but to my ears his jazziest band, Masada, is basically music that owes much to Ornette Coleman with modified Jewish traditional melodies on top. For some reason, that's always glossed over. Zorn's label Tzadik, however, does a wide range of great contemporary stuff; the most recent thing that comes to mind is trumpeter Steven Bernstein's Diaspora Suite. It's Jewish melodies blended with a sort of Lounge Lizards-ish psychedelia.

That said, I think one problem with jazz these days is that today's great players don't necessarily make great albums. If you live in New York like I do, you can hear amazing stuff in the clubs that doesn't always translate well on disc. Sometimes I think it's because record producers who understand how jazz fits into the contemporary ferment don't exist anymore, and the likes of Teo Macero, Alfred Lion and Norman Granz are long gone. Orrin Keepnews now does reissues exclusively. On the other hand, Manfred Eicher, the guy at ECM, has kind of a firm hand with his artists (probably why his label has a very definable ECM sound), but that really is an anomaly. I also should mention that there's an indie label out of Portugal called Clean Feed that records cutting-edge improvisational music, much of it by statesiders.

 

[davisac]

Im not going to do all the speculating. I listen to it every so often just because i like to I dont have any other reason for doing it. But music everyone has a diff opinion so why does it matter?

 

[Faust2D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru blu /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with the premise ("Jazz is evolving like crazy…"), but not the specifics. People tend to assign innovation to Zorn, but to my ears his jazziest band, Masada, is basically music that owes much to Ornette Coleman with modified Jewish traditional melodies on top. For some reason, that's always glossed over. Zorn's label Tzadik, however, does a wide range of great contemporary stuff; the most recent thing that comes to mind is trumpeter Steven Bernstein's Diaspora Suite. It's Jewish melodies blended with a sort of Lounge Lizards-ish psychedelia. That said, I think one problem with jazz these days is that today's great players don't necessarily make great albums. If you live in New York like I do, you can hear amazing stuff in the clubs that doesn't always translate well on disc. Sometimes I think it's because record producers who understand how jazz fits into the contemporary ferment don't exist anymore, and the likes of Teo Macero, Alfred Lion and Norman Granz are long gone. Orrin Keepnews now does reissues exclusively. On the other hand, Manfred Eicher, the guy at ECM, has kind of a firm hand with his artists (probably why his label has a very definable ECM sound), but that really is an anomaly. I also should mention that there's an indie label out of Portugal called Clean Feed that records cutting-edge improvisational music, much of it by statesiders.

There used to be a great innovative Jazz label: CPM. They had their won sound signature and a lot of interesting things came out on that label: Trilok Gurtu, Ulrich Lask, Christof Lauer and other great stuff.

Regarding Zorn; I have been to a great deal of his concerts staring from early 90's and I can tell you Naked City was the greatest contemporary Jazz band

one might not think it's Jazz but when you look at it deeper, well it is a Jazz band.

 

[Fud]

Whether or not Jazz is dead, this thread was just resurrected from the grave =P How did anyone find this from two years ago!?!?

 

[Faust2D]

someone used a search function?

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif Regarding Zorn; I have been to a great deal of his concerts staring from early 90's and I can tell you Naked City was the greatest contemporary Jazz band one might not think it's Jazz but when you look at it deeper, well it is a Jazz band.

My experience with Zorn both live and on record goes back quite a bit farther than that. Naked City, numerous versions of his game-piece Cobra, the Ennio Morricone stuff, many free-for-all improvs, even that one band with bassist Mark Dresser (I think it was Spy Vs. Spy) that played Ornette Coleman's compositions exclusively…I've seen them all. Naked City's more of a punk-jazz band, emphasis on the punk. That doesn't mean it's bad or "not jazz," just that I don't feel it's his "jazziest"—because that wasn't its point in the first place. The '90s had a lot more fertile jazz ground than people give them credit for; for the sake of argument, a number of ensembles that sprung up around the bassist William Parker might also lay claim to the "greatest contemporary jazz band" mantle. And back then the alto saxist Henry Threadgill had one of the most far-reaching bands ever: Very Very Circus. I can't imagine anyone hearing the uptempo tracks on Too Much Sugar For A Dime and not being thoroughly blown away, but that's just me.

 

[Faust2D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru blu /img/forum/go_quote.gif My experience with Zorn both live and on record goes back quite a bit farther than that. Naked City, numerous versions of his game-piece Cobra, the Ennio Morricone stuff, many free-for-all improvs, even that one band with bassist Mark Dresser (I think it was Spy Vs. Spy) that played Ornette Coleman's exclusively…I've seen them all. Naked City's more of a punk-jazz band, emphasis on the punk. That doesn't mean it's bad or "not jazz," just that I don't feel it's his "jazziest"—because that wasn't its point in the first place. The '90s had a lot more fertile jazz ground than people give them credit for; for the sake of argument, a number of ensembles that sprung up around the bassist William Parker might also lay claim to the "greatest contemporary jazz band" mantle. And back then the alto saxist Henry Threadgill had one of the most far-reaching bands ever: Very Very Circus. I can't imagine anyone hearing the uptempo tracks on Too Much Sugar For A Dime and not being thoroughly blown away, but that's just me.

I like Threadgill as well, just not as much as Zorn. My perception is somewhat biased since I turned to Zorn from my involvement with RIO, kraut, grind and hard-core

I never heard William Parker, so that a name for me to research. What would you recommend by him?

Free Jazz followed but I always had tendency to like the aggressive side of Jazz and only recently got into bebop, hard bop, cool-jazz and now even 30's european jazz

But Zorn still holds a special place in my collection.

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif I never heard William Parker, so that a name for me to research. What would you recommend by him?

Cecil Taylor (try one of the trio discs featuring the British drummer Tony Oxley)

Charles Gayle, William Parker and Rashied Ali - Touchin' On Trane

David S. Ware Quartet - Third-Ear Recitation or Godspelized

Other Dimensions in Music - self-titled album

Enjoy.

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faust2D /img/forum/go_quote.gif I never heard William Parker, so that a name for me to research. What would you recommend by him?

Parker is a huge figure in the NYC avant-garde scene, arguably as important/influential as Zorn. My favorite of his is probably O'Neal's Porch, but Corn Meal Dance, The Peach Orchard, and Lifting the Sanctions (if you can find it) are all excellent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru blu I think it's because record producers who understand how jazz fits into the contemporary ferment don't exist anymore, and the likes of Teo Macero, Alfred Lion and Norman Granz are long gone. Orrin Keepnews now does reissues exclusively. On the other hand, Manfred Eicher, the guy at ECM, has kind of a firm hand with his artists (probably why his label has a very definable ECM sound), but that really is an anomaly. I also should mention that there's an indie label out of Portugal called Clean Feed that records cutting-edge improvisational music, much of it by statesiders.

It's getting very, very difficult to make it in the record business these days. Everyone complains about the RIAA, and the major labels whining about downloads & theft and all that, but the fact is it's the smaller indie labels that are being hit the hardest. I swapped a few emails with Stephen Joerg (who runs Aum Fidelity, the label that produced most of the William Parker records I mentioned above) and his sales started slumping big time around '06.

For most of these guys, a typical CD run is 1000 discs, and it's pretty rare for these to sell out. Still, they often find their new releases up on BitTorrent sites just days after they come out.

If there is a dearth of great jazz recordings these days (and I don't think there is), it's not for lack of talent in the people producing the records (and certainly isn't for a lack of energy/innovation in the music)...it's that it's gotten almost impossible to make a living running a label, so many of the guys who do it, do it part time or on a break-even basis as a hobby.

You mention ECM, but they're huge compared to the labels I'm talking about (they're distributed by Universal). You also mention Clean Feed, who are awesome. I've found a couple really great European jazz labels lately on Rhapsody, many of whose releases are difficult, if not impossible, to obtain in the U.S.: Parco Della Musica (put out the excellent Suite for Tina Modotti by Francesco Bearzatti Tinissima), Alfamusic (did La Case Di Berio by Enrico Intra), and Tropical Music (who finally, after 25 years, reissued Albert Mangelsdorff's Folk Mond & Flower Dream...one of my favorite reissues last year).

Great stateside labels include Aum Fidelity (mentioned above), Nessa, Delmark (been around a while), Accurate, Cadence Jazz, Rastascan, Thrill Jockey, Hopscotch...there are tons more.

 

[tru blu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68 /img/forum/go_quote.gif If there is a dearth of great jazz recordings these days (and I don't think there is), it's not for lack of talent in the people producing the records (and certainly isn't for a lack of energy/innovation in the music)...

Perhaps I wasn't specific enough; I think folks don't realize that producing a jazz record can be more than getting musicians in a room and turning the tapes on. That's why I think, for better or worse, ECM records have a "sound." Some think it's over-reverbed, but the point is that it exists and listeners gravitate to it—which is why it's so huge. Indie jazz labels have never had it easy; people tend to forget that Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige and all the labels under the Fantasy/OJC umbrella spent years out of business before they were resurrected in the CD era—and they had talent pools that consisted of folks like Thelonious Monk and Dexter Gordon. And just like now, great musicians found ways to keep developing and innovating.

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tru blu /img/forum/go_quote.gif people tend to forget that Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige and all the labels under the Fantasy/OJC umbrella spent years out of business before they were resurrected in the CD era—and they had talent pools that consisted of folks like Thelonious Monk and Dexter Gordon.

That's a great point. People (like the OP in this thread) may talk about jazz being not as popular now as it was in the '50s, but in the '50s Blue Note was as "indie" as it gets...Van Gelder recorded Monk, Miles & 'Trane at his parent's house in Hackensack, NJ.

Still...if those records were made available for free to half the population of the Western world just days after they appeared in stores (like what is happening now), Blue Note would have folded a lot sooner than 1979.