[johnation33]

Hi everyone,

I just have a few questions regarding itunes:

1) I've been reading how Windows kernal mixer screws up the sounds of certain music files.... if all my songs though are mp3 files between 128k and 320k bitrate, does using a foobar passthrough or ASIO really improve my SQ or is it for lossless formats (not mp3)?

2) After reading the forums, I've turned off EQ for itunes (although I feel like some bass is lost on many of my rock songs) but I think SQ has gotten more clear. I've also raised my itunes volume to max because of the windows kernel mixer. However, some songs have low volume, while others have high volume so to equalize the volume I use the "get info" settings and change some volume settings individually...does this tamper with the sound quality?

 

[Gurck]

I'm fairly skeptical and I was really able to hear a difference switching to kernel streaming (I now use asio as I find its plugin for foobar easier to use), through low-end equipment no less. It definitely makes a difference.

Changing volume is necessary as most music is very compressed when mastered (eg. loud) while some, notably jazz, classical and many songs recorded in the 70s or earlier is not.

You can use foobar or winamp, both allow for the use of ks / asio. I'd get away from itunes though, I've never used it but as I understand it it muddies music and can randomly delete music as well. I remember a while back there was a big to-do about using itunes (for windows) with a passthrough to foobar for better sound quality - without having ks or asio installed or enabled for foobar. This tells me that something about quicktime isn't quite right, at least for windows. Past that, the software is amazingly bloated and installs a number of running processes. If every software developer released software like itunes, we'd need 8gb ram just to boot up.

 

[LnxPrgr3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurck /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've never used it but as I understand it it muddies music and can randomly delete music as well.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[Gurck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do you have a source for this?

For which? If you mean music deletion, check this very forum, there's a thread on it. I've also seen any number of threads on other forums about it as well.

If you're talking about adversely affecting sound quality, I'll look it up in a bit after supper. The presumption is that quicktime for windows has muddy sound. QT is a required install with itunes and acts as its mixer. I heard about the foobar passthrough a while back on another forum I visit. Everyone who tried it felt it improved the sound.

 

[LnxPrgr3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurck /img/forum/go_quote.gif For which? If you mean music deletion, check this very forum, there's a thread on it.

Why god? WHY?! <-- do you mean this thread? Can't say I've had anything like that happen to me, but then again, I can't say I've ever tried the sequence of steps that led to that.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurck /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're talking about adversely affecting sound quality, I'll look it up in a bit after supper. The presumption is that quicktime for windows has muddy sound.

Is this related to it going to kmixer?

Man, us Mac users have it easy

 

[Gurck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why god? WHY?! <-- do you mean this thread? Can't say I've had anything like that happen to me, but then again, I can't say I've ever tried the sequence of steps that led to that. Is this related to it going to kmixer? Man, us Mac users have it easy

Its frequency is only common enough that there are a lot of hits if you google it, but rare enough that many users will never experience it. Either way, why risk it?

As for the sound quality, as I understood it, itunes has the same effect as adding another kmixer, or worse. Essentially, it makes music even muddier.

Edit: Googled around a bit figuring I'd find a thread here at head-fi, and I did: http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f46/it...-guide-246209/

I know foobar doesn't have kernel streaming or asio included or enabled by default, but I'm not sure if this passthrough app does so. That would explain users getting better sound quality without doing it on their own. It doesn't make itunes any less of a digital pig though =p

 

[ppxnouse]

Quote:

so to equalize the volume I use the "get info" settings and change some volume settings individually...does this tamper with the sound quality?

Not 100% sure about that, but I assume iTunes uses a similar algorithm like mp3gain for that. It should only affect the "volume setting" of iTunes internal mixer.

 

[LnxPrgr3]

First, to answer the OP: that setting can degrade sound quality, if:

1. you use it to increase the volume of a song, and introduce clipping, or
2. you use it to lower the volume, and you're outputting 16-bit sound, in which case each 6dB drop is effectively a lost bit of precision

It's technically possible iTunes could do something more to screw up the sound, but volume scaling is trivial enough (literally simple division) I doubt they'd make such a mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurck /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its frequency is only common enough that there are a lot of hits if you google it, but rare enough that many users will never experience it. Either way, why risk it?

So it would be fair to say that someone googling the problem might overestimate the risk of encountering it

I've read posts on here of people losing files moving a folder from one drive to another with Windows Explorer. I've had a drive failure take out everything on a system while typing an IM. Nothing is without risk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurck /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the sound quality, as I understood it, itunes has the same effect as adding another kmixer, or worse. Essentially, it makes music even muddier.

I thought kmixer's problem was resampling everything to 48k. Quicktime doesn't resample to some other rate, does it? If so, that was silly and pointless of them. If all it's doing is acting as yet another digital volume control, it should be relatively benign (especially if set so that it makes no change), and iTunes should be no worse than any other non-ASIO/kernel streaming media player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurck /img/forum/go_quote.gif It doesn't make itunes any less of a digital pig though =p

You have a point. I use it on the Mac, but find it more of a pain than it's worth on Windows. Then again, I find audio on Windows more of a pain than it's worth...

 

[Gurck]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LnxPrgr3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif First, to answer the OP: that setting can degrade sound quality, if: you use it to increase the volume of a song, and introduce clipping, or you use it to lower the volume, and you're outputting 16-bit sound, in which case each 6dB drop is effectively a lost bit of precision It's technically possible iTunes could do something more to screw up the sound, but volume scaling is trivial enough (literally simple division) I doubt they'd make such a mistake. So it would be fair to say that someone googling the problem might overestimate the risk of encountering it I've read posts on here of people losing files moving a folder from one drive to another with Windows Explorer. I've had a drive failure take out everything on a system while typing an IM. Nothing is without risk. I thought kmixer's problem was resampling everything to 48k. Quicktime doesn't resample to some other rate, does it? If so, that was silly and pointless of them. If all it's doing is acting as yet another digital volume control, it should be relatively benign (especially if set so that it makes no change), and iTunes should be no worse than any other non-ASIO/kernel streaming media player. You have a point. I use it on the Mac, but find it more of a pain than it's worth on Windows. Then again, I find audio on Windows more of a pain than it's worth...

I see nothing in the passthrough plugin's description to indicate that it somehow installs bitperfect playback for foobar2000, and no instructions to the end-user for doing so. Foobar2000 doesn't come with ks or asio, they must be downloaded separately and configured. Thus I have to assume that foobar2000 without ks/asio sounds better than itunes, based on the comments of virtually everyone who uses the itunes passthrough plugin. If that's the case, itunes (or more specifically QT) is doing something detrimental to sound quality separate from the kmixer.

Note - I'm referring not to the thread about the plugin on this site, which goes into these details. I've seen it mentioned on other forums with no mention of the necessary foobar configuration, but with the same positive responses from posters. Unless the plugin itself has instructions when installing it, QT does foul the sound. If it does indeed instruct the end user, then ignore this. I'm not about to find out, I consider Itunes/QT to be malware and won't willingly install them.

If I take a risk, it had better be worth it. Bloated software with a habit for ninja-changing my file associations doesn't fit that bill.

The only difference between Apples and PCs is the OS. You can just as easily use Linux with the same hardware.

 

[johnation33]

Ok well after all the advice I tried both using foobar with ASIO and itunes (no passthrough, just normal itunes) and although I couldn't tell any difference with my grado SR60 or my sony mdr v6, my brother could easily tell the difference (and I did a double blind test on him three times, and he consistently chose the ASIO one as the "better" sounding one). Oh well, I guess it wins dang I really like the itunes organizing though.