[chateaucomblat]

Dear lovely people of Head-Fi!

As this is my very first post, let me take the opportunity to express my gratitude to all the people here! I have collected a lot of useful insights from you. Now I ran into some issues that I just can't wrap my head around - I was hoping you could help me.

I am sporting a Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro 80 Ohm that is connected to my PC through a FiiO E10k Olympus 2 (located among books, not close to the PC to avoid any interference).

Now, I really enjoy listening to dark ambient soundtracks like those made by Reznor & Ross or Jason Hill for Mindhunter. However, I noticed that while any other genre (rock, electronic) plays just fine, certain dark ambient songs are simply impossible to enjoy through my headphone as either the background "ambience" noises or the piano/glockenspiel sounds become muddy, hiss-y, with some high-pitched noise constantly interfering, making the whole listening experience simply unbearable. As far as I could gather, it mostly occurs with sounds in the mid-range.

I have recently started using Tidal where these songs are available in FLAC yet that didn't help. I also went to my local audiostore where I had a Grado SR80E connected to a rather expensive setup but the deficiencies persisted.

I can illustrate by a good examples:
Less Likely by Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross (available on Tidal): especially the parts from 2:30 with the piano/glockenspiel(?), and from 3:30 to around 3:50 and onwards sound especially bad.
I experience similar issues with songs from the same album/artists, as well as during a while listening to some songs from Mindhunter

Now I know dark ambient is not supposed to sound all smooth and ethereal but it certainly isn't supposed to sound the way I am hearing it either. The good people at my local store said the source might be faulty but I just don't see how could the studio recording on Tidal be of such low quality.

Any ideas, guys?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Hifiearspeakers]

That’s easy. It’s your headphones. Beyerdynamic is notorious for very bright headphones with too much upper mid and treble energy. You need headphones that are more forgiving and tuned closer to neutral or even slightly dark.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

...certain dark ambient songs are simply impossible to enjoy through my headphone as either the background "ambience" noises or the piano/glockenspiel sounds become muddy...

...hiss-y, with some high-pitched noise constantly interfering, making the whole listening experience simply unbearable. As far as I could gather, it mostly occurs with sounds in the mid-range.

Any ideas, guys?

You can try loosening the clamp force and see if that helps.

Or use an EQ and trim the boxed areas.

Otherwise...change the headphone. If you can use an open headphone and don't want to change the amp, get the HE400S.

 

[chateaucomblat]

That’s easy. It’s your headphones. Beyerdynamic is notorious for very bright headphones with too much upper mid and treble energy. You need headphones that are more forgiving and tuned closer to neutral or even slightly dark.

You can try loosening the clamp force and see if that helps.

Or use an EQ and trim the boxed areas.

Otherwise...change the headphone. If you can use an open headphone and don't want to change the amp, get the HE400S.

Thanks for the help, guys!
I am curious - did you check on the song? Does it sound fine for your? I'm only asking because I listened to it at my local store with a range of different headphones (Sennheiser HD 600, Grado SR80E and some others), and the issue persisted.

I wish I could afford the HE400S - sadly, I can't. Any other recommendations within, say, 150 euros? I was looking at the DT 990 250 ohm, as well as the Grado SR80E. I could either keep the 770 for gaming (as it doesn't have any issues with other genres nor gaming) and get a good open one for music or I could altogether change the 770 and perhaps get a new amp (also within a reasonably mid-price range).

Bottom line, the song/genre I mentioned sounded bad on everything I tested.

Any further ideas?

Thank you in advance again.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I am curious - did you check on the song? Does it sound fine for your?

Tried it on my HD330 (very similar response curve as DT770, but much worse) with EQ off and it's horrible.

I'm only asking because I listened to it at my local store with a range of different headphones (Sennheiser HD 600, Grado SR80E and some others), and the issue persisted.

SR80e has the same problem if not worse (ie exacerbated by the early bass roll off and zero isolation that makes you crank them up and how they sit smack over your ear canals) at the top end.

Some HD600 have a slightly taller peak at 3500hz, which can seem stronger since it's at a lower freq, and is exacerbated if it's worn tight. That's why I said that if you get these you need to adjust and relax the clamp force. On top of that mine has an EQ cut at 3500hz and has thicker earpads.

I wish I could afford the HE400S - sadly, I can't. Any other recommendations within, say, 150 euros? I was looking at the DT 990 250 ohm, as well as the Grado SR80E. I could either keep the 770 for gaming (as it doesn't have any issues with other genres nor gaming) and get a good open one for music or I could altogether change the 770 and perhaps get a new amp (also within a reasonably mid-price range).

Bottom line, the song/genre I mentioned sounded bad on everything I tested.

Any further ideas?

Free: EQ app

Maybe cheap: Used HE400S

Solution you can't afford: Audeze LCD-2C

 

[chateaucomblat]

Tried it on my HD330 (very similar response curve as DT770, but much worse) with EQ off and it's horrible.

SR80e has the same problem if not worse (ie exacerbated by the early bass roll off and zero isolation that makes you crank them up and how they sit smack over your ear canals) at the top end.

Some HD600 have a slightly taller peak at 3500hz, which can seem stronger since it's at a lower freq, and is exacerbated if it's worn tight. That's why I said that if you get these you need to adjust and relax the clamp force. On top of that mine has an EQ cut at 3500hz and has thicker earpads.

Free: EQ app

Maybe cheap: Used HE400S

Solution you can't afford: Audeze LCD-2C

Thanks a million, ProtegeManiac!

So, the way I understand it there is no mid-budget headphone-option for listening to this genre? (Unless I want to start tinkering with an EQ, of course) - that is pretty weird to some degree, I'd say!

Well, I guess it's a bit of a stretch to upgrade the gear with my mind only on a few songs, as otherwise I am largely satisfied with the DT 770 (I mean I should be, right?)

Nevertheless, I do want to upgrade, but with a more expanded focus. As mentioned earlier, I largely use the cans for for gaming (non-competitive) and music. I would love to get that HE400S which you guys keep recommending - sadly they don't sell 'em in my country and with the import costs it becomes horribly expensive. I understand they'd work well both for gaming as well as for dark ambient.

What we do have here are the DT 990 and the HD600 (which you sport?) or the HD650, which I read has a dark tone (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dark-headphones-with-wide-soundstage.740724/) and might actually bring some improvement even in the dark ambient genre (and in gaming too).

I have another option - I have a relative who travels frequently, I could ask him to keep his eyes out for the HE400S - would you say it's worth such a fuss?

Thanks again.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So, the way I understand it there is no mid-budget headphone-option for listening to this genre?

Not for your particular requirements.

(Unless I want to start tinkering with an EQ, of course) - that is pretty weird to some degree, I'd say!

I find it even weirder that people opt to use hardware like tubes or some Burr Brown-equipped DACs as imprecise, wide band EQs.

Well, I guess it's a bit of a stretch to upgrade the gear with my mind only on a few songs, as otherwise I am largely satisfied with the DT 770 (I mean I should be, right?)

Well not everybody would be that happy with it but then again that's true for everything, even at higher price points.

Nevertheless, I do want to upgrade, but with a more expanded focus. As mentioned earlier, I largely use the cans for for gaming (non-competitive) and music. I would love to get that HE400S which you guys keep recommending - sadly they don't sell 'em in my country and with the import costs it becomes horribly expensive. I understand they'd work well both for gaming as well as for dark ambient.

It's not that they specifically would be much better for gaming. Or even for dark ambient.

But since the treble response on most headphones is bothering you and you also don't want to spend on an amplifier, the HE400S is a relatively safe choice. At 22ohms, 98dB/1mW, there's not as much to be gained driving it with another amp over what you have and don't want to spend replacing. Treble isn't problematic either, and even if it still was, at the very least we can assume you're hearing it near as best as it can be to definitively say it's definitely the headphone you don't like and not that the amp is distorting on it.

What we do have here are the DT 990 and the HD600 (which you sport?) or the HD650, which I read has a dark tone (https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dark-headphones-with-wide-soundstage.740724/) and might actually bring some improvement even in the dark ambient genre (and in gaming too).

It's not really that dark. Just that practically everything else has a spike where it starts to gently roll off.

I have another option - I have a relative who travels frequently, I could ask him to keep his eyes out for the HE400S - would you say it's worth such a fuss?

Well it's either spend more on that and not need an amp or buy something else that might need it.

 

[chateaucomblat]

Not for your particular requirements.




I find it even weirder that people opt to use hardware like tubes or some Burr Brown-equipped DACs as imprecise, wide band EQs.




Well not everybody would be that happy with it but then again that's true for everything, even at higher price points.




It's not that they specifically would be much better for gaming. Or even for dark ambient.

But since the treble response on most headphones is bothering you and you also don't want to spend on an amplifier, the HE400S is a relatively safe choice. At 22ohms, 98dB/1mW, there's not as much to be gained driving it with another amp over what you have and don't want to spend replacing. Treble isn't problematic either, and even if it still was, at the very least we can assume you're hearing it near as best as it can be to definitively say it's definitely the headphone you don't like and not that the amp is distorting on it.




It's not really that dark. Just that practically everything else has a spike where it starts to gently roll off.




Well it's either spend more on that and not need an amp or buy something else that might need it.

Thank you so much ProtegeManiac for your help with my issue. I'll continue reading through the threads here and try to arrive to some conclusion. Perhaps I should up my budget. Actually, probably that is what I should do. Now my new list of headphones - among which I understand there are a number of neutral-leaning ones that can still be fun for gaming - to research is:

ATH-R70X (I don't see a way to amp this within my budget...would the Modi/Magni combo suffice?) - if yes maybe this could be the best long-term investment as I could use the Modi/Magni in the future for almost anything if they can amp the R70X, no?)
AKG K712 (needs new amp?...)
Sennheiser HD600/650 (same...)
HE400S

I am not even sure what affordable-ish amp/dac could work with these respectively. Wish they'd sell Schiit anywhere remotely close to my region...
Anyways, would love to hear more insights from you but I guess I should just do my research.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Thank you so much ProtegeManiac for your help with my issue. I'll continue reading through the threads here and try to arrive to some conclusion. Perhaps I should up my budget. Actually, probably that is what I should do. Now my new list of headphones - among which I understand there are a number of neutral-leaning ones that can still be fun for gaming - to research is:

ATH-R70X (I don't see a way to amp this within my budget...would the Modi/Magni combo suffice?) - if yes maybe this could be the best long-term investment as I could use the Modi/Magni in the future for almost anything if they can amp the R70X, no?)

Practically, yes. But honestly I'd get something smoother sounding than the Magni. Or at least check the comparisons to the older versions since the Magni, Magni2, and even the Magni2 Uber tends to be a bit sharp when cranked up unlike say something like the Meier Jazz or Audio GD NFB-11.

AKG K712 (needs new amp?...)

GIven the much lower sensitivity, yes. Magni3 has no problem in terms of power but same note as above.

Sennheiser HD600/650 (same...)

Given their high sensitivity and high impedance you can get away with a relatively cheap OTL tube amp, more so since the sound you're probably looking for will best come from an HD600 driven by a Little Dot Mk2. I'd just get a cheap DAC or maybe an ODAC from Head N HiFi in Switzerland.

HE400S

Downside: you have to buy this elsewhere.

Upside: you don't need to change the amp, so that's one (DAC-HPamp) to two (DAC and HPamp) less items to procure from elsewhere.

Caveat: spare parts might be hard to come by vs Sennheiser.

 

[chateaucomblat]

Practically, yes. But honestly I'd get something smoother sounding than the Magni. Or at least check the comparisons to the older versions since the Magni, Magni2, and even the Magni2 Uber tends to be a bit sharp when cranked up unlike say something like the Meier Jazz or Audio GD NFB-11.




GIven the much lower sensitivity, yes. Magni3 has no problem in terms of power but same note as above.




Given their high sensitivity and high impedance you can get away with a relatively cheap OTL tube amp, more so since the sound you're probably looking for will best come from an HD600 driven by a Little Dot Mk2. I'd just get a cheap DAC or maybe an ODAC from Head N HiFi in Switzerland.




Downside: you have to buy this elsewhere.

Upside: you don't need to change the amp, so that's one (DAC-HPamp) to two (DAC and HPamp) less items to procure from elsewhere.

Caveat: spare parts might be hard to come by vs Sennheiser.

Thanks again, ProtegeManiac!
So the Magni/Modi stack might tune an otherwise neutral-ish sounding headphone to a direction where treble is again over-emphasized and my dreams of listening to dark ambient would again be ruined?
Sadly, Schiit seems to be the only kind of product that 1, is quality 2, is affordable 3, I can actually get my hands on them...
There is also Fulla and Vali as the tube options...

So what to do with this list on my hands...only thing I managed to do so far is order them into preference, still having, say, 60% gaming, 40% music (inc. dark ambient) in mind:
R70X
HD600/650 - in an other thread, Monsterzero says they have no soundstage...so not ideal for gaming. However some described it neutral/dark-leaning.
HE400S
(K712) - this one is out as every review says its highs are overly spiked.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So the Magni/Modi stack might tune an otherwise neutral-ish sounding headphone to a direction where treble is again over-emphasized and my dreams of listening to dark ambient would again be ruined?

Potentially, yes, that's a possibility. Although the headphones still have a bigger effect than the amp, but if you do need to crank it up, tendency is it gets a bit sharper.

Sadly, Schiit seems to be the only kind of product that 1, is quality 2, is affordable 3, I can actually get my hands on them...
There is also Fulla and Vali as the tube options...

Meier Corda Rock for the amp and then compare the landed price on the Modi3 vs the ODAC from Head N HiFi. Order the Rock in silver or black to match the DAC.

So what to do with this list on my hands...only thing I managed to do so far is order them into preference, still having, say, 60% gaming, 40% music (inc. dark ambient) in mind:
R70X
HD600/650 - in an other thread, Monsterzero says they have no soundstage...so not ideal for gaming. However some described it neutral/dark-leaning.
HE400S
(K712) - this one is out as every review says its highs are overly spiked.

If you get the R70X try it on your headphones first. If you're sure you like it then use an OTL tube amp on it like the Little Dot Mk2 from China.

 

[chateaucomblat]

Potentially, yes, that's a possibility. Although the headphones still have a bigger effect than the amp, but if you do need to crank it up, tendency is it gets a bit sharper.




Meier Corda Rock for the amp and then compare the landed price on the Modi3 vs the ODAC from Head N HiFi. Order the Rock in silver or black to match the DAC.




If you get the R70X try it on your headphones first. If you're sure you like it then use an OTL tube amp on it like the Little Dot Mk2 from China.

Once again, my thanks, ProtegeManiac.

I listened to Less Likely by Reznor & Ross again-and-again and I just can't fathom how can it sound so bad on my DT 770 80ohm with the FiiO E10K. I mean, compared to basically any other song, it is just abysmal. Are we sure it's indeed not the source that is of poor quality? Perhaps I should ask someone here in the community who owns a headphone I'm planning to get to give it a listen too. It's beyond me...

I checked the amp recommendations that you gave - I must admit, they are way out of my budget. Honestly, only Schiits and perhaps the Little Dot Mk2 are within my means. As I said, a relative will travel to Sydney soon where some Schiits are available within my target, namely the Modi 3 + either the Magni 3 or if I stretch it the Vali 2 (or I could get the Little Dot Mk2 instead). Alternatively there is the Fulla 2 too. I mean getting any of these could work as a fine base-set for most of my listed headphones, right? It's not like I'll want to immediately change them like I do with my Beyer+FiiO...?

ProtegeManiac, what would you say, which of those headphones could work best with this setup? I mean, blast the dark ambient, I'll be satisfied if I get something decent for gaming (sound-stage, immersion) with at least some improvement in the dark ambient genre over my current setup. I am leaning towards to R70X - then again I can't find a trustworthy-looking frequency chart on it that would prove it's relative neutrality.

Oh and: what about getting a Loki EQ?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I listened to Less Likely by Reznor & Ross again-and-again and I just can't fathom how can it sound so bad on my DT 770 80ohm with the FiiO E10K. I mean, compared to basically any other song, it is just abysmal. Are we sure it's indeed not the source that is of poor quality? Perhaps I should ask someone here in the community who owns a headphone I'm planning to get to give it a listen too. It's beyond me...

It's still partly the recording but the thing is the treble spikes in the DT770 and SR80, or even the 3.5khz spike in the HD600, can make that worse.

I checked the amp recommendations that you gave - I must admit, they are way out of my budget.

So is getting some gear and then upgrading later.

I checked the amp recommendations that you gave - I must admit, they are way out of my budget. Honestly, only Schiits and perhaps the Little Dot Mk2 are within my means. As I said, a relative will travel to Sydney soon where some Schiits are available within my target, namely the Modi 3 + either the Magni 3 or if I stretch it the Vali 2 (or I could get the Little Dot Mk2 instead).

Vali2 tubes sometimes have a hum but it's mechanical. That said they're a bit softer than the Magni at the top end, so at minimum it won't exacerbate what the headphones might be doing to the recording. Vali2 would also be more flexible with lower sensitivity, lower impedance headphones than the LD Mk2.

Alternatively there is the Fulla 2 too. I mean getting any of these could work as a fine base-set for most of my listed headphones, right? It's not like I'll want to immediately change them like I do with my Beyer+FiiO...?

Very likely not that much different from the Magni apart from current delivery. Tonally it might just do the same thing with the top end, and if anything, lower range Schiit apart from the Asgard tend to be brighter than some Fiios.

ProtegeManiac, what would you say, which of those headphones could work best with this setup? I mean, blast the dark ambient, I'll be satisfied if I get something decent for gaming (sound-stage, immersion) with at least some improvement in the dark ambient genre over my current setup. I am leaning towards to R70X - then again I can't find a trustworthy-looking frequency chart on it that would prove it's relative neutrality.

Regardless of the severity of the spikes the basic shape of the curve is still mostly consistent.
https://www.google.com/search?q=r70...Zt4KHdkQDP8Q_AUIESgB&biw=1536&bih=754#imgrc=_

If you really want it dark I'd really just use an EQ now and save up for an LCD-2C.

Oh and: what about getting a Loki EQ?

1. Why use analogue EQ where you can't change the center frequency much less the curve type to match where the problem on the particular headphone actually is.

2. Why pay for an analogue EQ where you can't change the center frequency much less the curve type to match where the problem on the particular headphone actually is.

3. Why buy a DAC, a HPamp that when cranked up might do the opposite of what you want, and an EQ to tame it but in the most imprecise way for ~$300 when you can just save up and get a good DAC-HPamp with a free digital EQ app.

 

[chateaucomblat]

It's still partly the recording but the thing is the treble spikes in the DT770 and SR80, or even the 3.5khz spike in the HD600, can make that worse.
So is getting some gear and then upgrading later.
Vali2 tubes sometimes have a hum but it's mechanical. That said they're a bit softer than the Magni at the top end, so at minimum it won't exacerbate what the headphones might be doing to the recording. Vali2 would also be more flexible with lower sensitivity, lower impedance headphones than the LD Mk2.
Very likely not that much different from the Magni apart from current delivery. Tonally it might just do the same thing with the top end, and if anything, lower range Schiit apart from the Asgard tend to be brighter than some Fiios.
Regardless of the severity of the spikes the basic shape of the curve is still mostly consistent.
https://www.google.com/search?q=r70...Zt4KHdkQDP8Q_AUIESgB&biw=1536&bih=754#imgrc=_
If you really want it dark I'd really just use an EQ now and save up for an LCD-2C.
1. Why use analogue EQ where you can't change the center frequency much less the curve type to match where the problem on the particular headphone actually is.

2. Why pay for an analogue EQ where you can't change the center frequency much less the curve type to match where the problem on the particular headphone actually is.

3. Why buy a DAC, a HPamp that when cranked up might do the opposite of what you want, and an EQ to tame it but in the most imprecise way for ~$300 when you can just save up and get a good DAC-HPamp with a free digital EQ app.

Hi ProtegeManiac! Again, thank for all your help so far!

So to sum it, the list is now narrowed to:
R70X or HD650 (or 600...).
I've read plenty of good stuff about the R70X with regards to it's relative neutrality but also its ability to be fun enough for gaming.

As they are high impedance headphones, you recommend getting the Little Dot Mk 2. I could - potentially - even do that, but then I'm not sure how good tube amps work for gaming. Nevertheless, I guess it'd be a good investment getting it at least eventually.

As to regular amps/dacs, the way I see my options are:

Modi 3 / Magni 3 stack or
Objective2 +ODAC
or
some combination of standalone JDS amps and dacs (atom amp or O2 amp + ol dac) or mix some Schiit there - I guess this only makes sense if I'm also planning to get the Little Dot, otherwise I should just stick with the Objective2+ODAC, no?

So the big question is: how to combine these options? Based on what you've said so far, R70X+Objective2+ODAC?

Or for the sake of future upgradability / tube inclusion, the amp and dac should be separate?

 

[PurpleAngel]

Massdrop/Sennheiser HD58X headphones