[Forest Design]

i know this has been discussed before, but i had never seen pictures until investigating a bit further. I know people say the RA1 is simple, but has synergy, but i didn't think it was this cheap looking. I was thinking of replacing my headfive with one, as i'm not noticing that much difference with my 325i with it vs. the headphone out jack on my stereo, but i can't see spending $250-350 on this:

p.s. here's the original url: http://www.ecp.cc/ra1.html

 

[nibiyabi]

This topic comes up all the time. Of course the raw value of all the parts is not going to add up to $250+, but what about all the time, energy, research, and experimentation that went into finding the sound the manufacturer was looking for? Constantly tweaking every single component until the sound is "right" takes a lot of time, effort, and money. You're not just paying for the parts -- you're paying for the sweat, blood and tears that were put into it.

 

[Forest Design]

no, yeah, i get that, but that's a shockingly tiny amount of materials compared to the insides of virtually any amp i've ever seen

 

[Forest Design]

or, at least any amp in that price range

 

[feh1325]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forest Design /img/forum/go_quote.gif no, yeah, i get that, but that's a shockingly tiny amount of materials compared to the insides of virtually any amp i've ever seen

have you seen xin's amps?

 

[robm321]

Yep that's it... oh, and the wood too... and about a pound of glue.

 

[warpdriver]

Yes this has been discussed before.

A lot of people will come to defend Mr Grado's products, but personally, I agree with you, I could not see myself buying one of those consciously knowing that's what inside.

Headphone amps are relatively niche products and thus the price/cost ratio is already pretty high, but the RA1 just takes it too far. I'd rather spend my $300 on something else that a (arguably) nice block of wood and a CMOY like circuit

 

[M0T0XGUY]

Well, now you definitly shouldn't get the amp, because in the back of your mind, all you would think about is how little circuitry is actually in the amp, and thus you'd feel as though the sound were not up to par with higher end amplifiers. I'm guilty of it too: its hard for people to find enjoyment in products that they feel are no where near the value of their MSRP, so it really comes down to whether the synergy you may find with the RA1 is worth the $250 in "cheap" components.

 

[joelongwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forest Design /img/forum/go_quote.gif no, yeah, i get that, but that's a shockingly tiny amount of materials compared to the insides of virtually any amp i've ever seen

I felt the same way as you, and than I remembered the old audiophile maxim that the ideal amplifier is nothing more than a straight wire with gain. If that is true (and I believe it is), than it would seem to me that fewer parts in the amp circuitry would be a plus. That is just my opinion, of course........but being the owner of an RA-1 for about 5 years now, I can attest to the synergistic relationship it has with Grado headphones, particularly the RS-1. After all, the amp was voiced by John Grado with the RS-1, just as Uncle Joe voiced the HP-1 and the Melos together.
And it never ceases to amaze me how some people can bash the "cheap" components in an RA-1, and then think nothing of shelling out upwards of $500 for an IEM, which, by the logic applied to the RA-1, is nothing more than some tiny bits of plastic, metal, and rubber. Go figure.

 

[ericj]

The only expensive part of the RA-1 is the wood, afaik. I forget what volume pot they used, so, there is that, possibly.

The input caps are solens, not "cheap" because they are film caps, but, only a few bucks. I've heard that they vary from 3uf to 5uf, unit to unit. This is fairly huge as input caps go.

They probably paid a dime for the opamp. I can get 'em for 23 cents. The rest of the components are pennies each.

As for "research", a dual opamp in a noninverting configuration with a pair of 9v batteries doesn't really rise to the level of research. They picked an amount of gain and calculated the resistor values.

It's interesting that it doesn't have power reserve capacitors.

 

[cotdt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nibiyabi /img/forum/go_quote.gif but what about all the time, energy, research, and experimentation that went into finding the sound the manufacturer was looking for? Constantly tweaking every single component until the sound is "right" takes a lot of time, effort, and money. You're not just paying for the parts -- you're paying for the sweat, blood and tears that were put into it.

Yes, you're paying for a CMOY, all that blood and tears it must have costed...

*runs away quickly*

 

[dsavitsk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelongwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif I felt the same way as you, and than I remembered the old audiophile maxim that the ideal amplifier is nothing more than a straight wire with gain. If that is true (and I believe it is), than it would seem to me that fewer parts in the amp circuitry would be a plus.

Fewer parts are good, but the problem with your logic is that while an opamp looks simple on the outside, it is anything but on the inside. Here is the circuit that is actually in the RA-1 complete with transistors, resistors, caps, and diodes all in the signal path. You can be the judge of whether it is a simple circuit or not.

Anyway, that said, the NJM4556 is actually not a bad opamp. My experience says that, opamp flaws aside, the sonic character of the RA-1 is determined less by the opamp, and more by the terrible input caps it uses. Remove those and replace them with a better quality cap ... or just remove them all together, and the RA-1 would be a much better amp. And, this is why the cheapness of the parts is frustrating. The opamp can hold its own against just about any other, but if grado would have spent $7 on a Sonicap instead of $3 on the SCR they use, it would have made a world of difference.

-d

 

[kramer5150]

Yeah.... its a very simple circuit, but it sounds good with the RA1. It boils down to sonic preferences though.

The truth is, Grados just don't need that much power to sound really good. Most single OP-amp circuits are no more than $30 in parts anyways. You could make a long list of pricey amps that use less than $30 in electrical parts. What you are paying for is the designers ability to pick and lay out components in a way that sounds good. Especially in a single OP-amp design, where every part can have a noticeable impact on the sonics of the overall circuit.

IMHO you should try and keep an open mind to all the popular amps on this forum, regardless of the internal part costs.

Using part cost as a guide, you would also have to rule out the AE-2, Hornet, Tomahawk...etc.. which are all very good sounding amps. What you are paying for, is the amp-makers ability to fine-tune the design during its development stages.

 

[lmilhan]

I will reserve judgement until I hear one paired with my RS-1s. I don't care what it's made of, or how cheap the parts are. If it synergizes with the RS-1s the way people say it does, that's all that matters to me. I care only about sound, not part quality or count. If it sounds good, it is good.

 

[ericj]

I can't stress this enough - the jrc4556 has a high input offset, so "time, energy, research, and experimentation" is just silly.

The resistor from noninverting input to ground is 100k, a fairly normal value and the same value seen in the CMOY. This is textbook stuff. Doesn't affect the sound.

Since the input offset is so high, the other two feedback loop resistors MUST equal roughly 100k when paralleled.

This wasn't a matter of selection - they decided how much voltage gain they wanted and did the math.

This is textbook stuff, and doesn't affect the sound.

Instead of the voltage divider you see in most cmoys, they just use two 9v batteries with the center tapped as virtual ground. This works, but you get offset if one battery drains before the other, which does happen fairly often.

Where the cmoy has power reserve caps, the RA-1 just has 112nf ceramics. This is interesting because this is the sort of value you'd generally see right up against the power pins on the opamp, merely to stabalize it.

The stabalizing bypass caps are, again, textbook stuff, and doesn't affect the sound.

They probably chose the 4556 because it's New Japan Radio's top of the line for high-current service. It can really sink some juice.

So, the design choices they made were to leave out large power reserve caps - which can make the bass sound a bit thin - and to use absurdly large input coupling caps, which can add a bit of euphony.