[warnsey]

Electrostatic seems to be all the rage at the moment. However there very expensive. Are there other brands apart from stax and the AKG K 340 (which are hard to find) in the sub $350 price range

 

[dj_mocok]

You want a used 2020 (Basic System II)?

A fellow Sydney head-fier PM'ed me about this awhile back ago about the 2020 for the price of AUS$450 or AUS$400 or something like that...
But I didn't take it because I wanted something else... He got a 3030 (or 4040) so he doesn't need the 2020 anymore.

Unfortunately I forgot his username.
You might wanna put this on WTB thread and see if he reads it..

 

[elephantman]

http://www.audiocubes.com/index.php?...a&filter_id=20

all under 350USD

 

[slindeman]

I loved the SRS-005 system when I had it. (It includes the SR-003 headphones and SRM-212 amp). I regret selling the SR-003 much more than I do the SR-404.

 

[edstrelow]

Stax SRM001 Mk2 portable system sells for under $300.00 when ordered from Audiocubes in Japan. The Koss ESP950 sometimes sells for less than $500.00. Also the portable . I have both as well as the Stax 404, Lambda Nova and Sigma. I recommend either.

The Stax portable is a good introduction to electrostatics on its own and I get regular use of it as a portable. Stax makes a similar set, with a different plug for home use.

 

[dk123]

How do these relatively inexpensive stax systems compare to something like decently amped dt880/k501/hd600 for classical listening?

 

[catscratch]

Having both the HD600 and the SR-001 system, I can comment.

Canalphones have recently seemed to me a compromise between portability and isolation on one hand, and sound quality on the other. Not so much the 001 - it does indeed sound more like a full-sized system than any other canalphones that I've tried, and it is better in sound quality overall. Somewhat.

It has an unbalanced sound. It is lacking in treble extension, and the midrange is very forward. The amp is mainly the culprit, or more specifically, the amp under battery power is the problem. Under AC power, the sound evens out considerably. I would wager that the SR-005 system, with the SRM-212 amplifier (which is quite good actually) wouldn't have any of these problems. From what I've read, the SRM-001 amplifier isn't a portable version of the SRM-212, but rather an older amplifier used in one of the earlier Stax Lambda Basic systems now rendered portable. In any case, the amp sucks big time. I would love to hear the SR-003 headphone (same as what's in the 001 system but with a standard Stax plug) on a KGSS or even my SRM-313.

I prefer the HD600 to the 001, but there are some things the 001 does amazingly well, much better than the 600. It is incredibly fast, having such a small, light diaphragm; it resolves detail amazingly well save for upper treble detail, which as I've mentioned is rolled off. It is more detailed, on the whole, than the Ety ER-4S! The midrange is incredibly lush, full, and liquid while mainaining stellar resolution. The bass isn't as resolved as I'm used to in electrostats but it is also more prominent and more impactful. However, while the HD600 loses in detail and midrange quality, it makes up for it in coherence, soundstage, tonal balance and treble extension. I don't consider the HD600 to be the most neutral, accurate headphone, but next to the 001, it sounds completely uncolored! The HD600 doesn't make you annoyed at it's sonic problems; the 001 does, unless you've got some way to compensate for them (like treble boost).

By using the headphone out on the X5, so that I can use the EQ to bring out the upper treble, and AC power on the amp, I've gotten the 001 to sound great. As good as the 600, if not better - at least with some music. But it needs a bit of work on your part to get there.

There have been issues with the 001's portability, and honestly, if you're used to carrying around an amped canalphone, you will not have any portability issues with the 001. It is no less portable than any amped canalphone system. It is also not that uncomfortable, once you figure out how to wear the system correctly.

My enthusiasm for the system has cooled somewhat, since it's sonic quirks are starting to get to me, but it is still a very unique and very good sounding system that has the potential to be truly excellent, with a bit of work and equipment matching. I'm hoping that Stax do not abandon the system in it's current state, but rather continue developing a portable amplifier than can do the headphones justice. A better balanced, more comfortable version of the 001 will be a very serious contended for the "best portable" crown.

 

[catscratch]

Also, on the note of cheap electrostatics...

I see older Stax Lambda phones with older energizer units on eBay all the time. A pair of Stax Lambda Pros with one of the older amplifiers will sell for $200-300 tops, more commonly for $100-200, and in my opinion, is definitely worth the money. The difference between the older Stax Lambda series headphones and the newer SR-202/303/404 series isn't all that big - a bit of treble harshess gone and a bit more bass/midbass presense added. The real progress has been in the amplifiers. However, for the money, these older systems are still a steal! I would recommend starting there, instead of going to the SR-001/SR-005 systems, for a good introduction to electrostatics. You will also be able to re-sell the system for pretty much the same exact price at which you bought it.

Don't get the SR-34 or similar systems, as they are electret headphones, which use a permanently charged diaphragm, and not true electrostatics. Electrets were an attempt to make electrostatics cheaper, with mixed results. They use thicker diaphragms, usually in the 4-6 micron thickness range, as opposed to the 1-2 micron thickness like you'd find in real electrostatics, and the sound suffers as a result. Also, electrets can be permanently damaged by being overdriven, while electrostatics are pretty durable in that regard. Stick with the Lambda's!

 

[mintyfresh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch Also, on the note of cheap electrostatics...

Nice reviews, catscratch.

 

[elephantman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch Also, on the note of cheap electrostatics... I see older Stax Lambda phones with older energizer units on eBay all the time. A pair of Stax Lambda Pros with one of the older amplifiers will sell for $200-300 tops, more commonly for $100-200, and in my opinion, is definitely worth the money. The difference between the older Stax Lambda series headphones and the newer SR-202/303/404 series isn't all that big - a bit of treble harshess gone and a bit more bass/midbass presense added. The real progress has been in the amplifiers. However, for the money, these older systems are still a steal! I would recommend starting there, instead of going to the SR-001/SR-005 systems, for a good introduction to electrostatics. You will also be able to re-sell the system for pretty much the same exact price at which you bought it. Don't get the SR-34 or similar systems, as they are electret headphones, which use a permanently charged diaphragm, and not true electrostatics. Electrets were an attempt to make electrostatics cheaper, with mixed results. They use thicker diaphragms, usually in the 4-6 micron thickness range, as opposed to the 1-2 micron thickness like you'd find in real electrostatics, and the sound suffers as a result. Also, electrets can be permanently damaged by being overdriven, while electrostatics are pretty durable in that regard. Stick with the Lambda's!

I'm thinking of buying SR-001 for portable use, do u recommend it? is the jack a 1/4 , 1/8 inch or 5 pin like the sr003? and is it hard to drive? thx.

 

[iban]

edit

 

[clarke68]

I was thinking about saving up for an SRS-005 system...it's scarcely $100 more than the 001 at Audiocubes and seems like it'd be worth it, especially if I decide to move farther up the line someday.

My biggest concern is comfort...they don't look comfortable, and I've read a few horror stories like "sounds great...but I can only wear them for 1 hour at a time before my ears hurt."

Can some current owners speak to their comfort? Also, how are they for isolation/leakage?

 

[catscratch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elephantman I'm thinking of buying SR-001 for portable use, do u recommend it? is the jack a 1/4 , 1/8 inch or 5 pin like the sr003? and is it hard to drive? thx.

The headphones come with a proprietary jack that connects only to the amplifier included in the system. The amplifier has a 1/8th mini input, but the system doesn't ship with a mini-mini interconnect; you'll need to provide one. I suggest a silver interconnect if you can find one, or at least something that sounds bright.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68 Can some current owners speak to their comfort? Also, how are they for isolation/leakage?

Isolation: none. They're open. Less isolation that other open headphones, even.

Leakage: not too bad. If you're playing them loud, then someone 3 feet away can hear you, but 10 feet away there's next to nothing. They're safe to use in low-noise environments unless it's absolutely mandatory that you do not annoy people right next to you.

Comfort: if you have big ears and ear canals, you have nothing to worry about, once you figure out how to wear them properly. They aren't usually worn on the headband - that's only there to keep them in when you're moving around. They're worn like regular canalphones. If, however, you have small ears, than you probably won't find them comfortable at all. The eartips are big, bigger than normal canalphones, and they tend to stretch your ears out mercilessly. If you've ever worn canalphones with triflanges - they're like that, but a bit less comfortable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iban There is a downside though: once you hear (and love) this combo, there is a chance that you will be wanting more.

Yup. They're what started me on the road to electrostatics. They're also not as good as a full-size electrostatic system, though they're quite good in their own right.

They may not be very pricey, but they're the first step down a road that can turn real expensive, real fast. Still, once you go electrostat, you really can't go back...

 

[catscratch]

OK, so I played around with the SR-001's some more. Tried a few different positions, a few different tip sizes, and for the hell of it, tried them on the headband and not inserted into the ear canals - just resting on the ears.

And...

HOT DAMN!! It turns out that I was wearing them wrong all along! On the headband, and just lightly resting against the ear canals - not actually shoved down the ear canals - they provide the best performance and the best comfort! They're actually quite comfortable this way, much better than all my other canalphones!

The sound definitely changed. They're no longer quite as midrange-forward; now they're just plain warm. Very, very warm. There's a lot more bass, and it is excellent in quality. Still too liquid by half, and lacking in resolution next to the SR-404, but much better in terms of impact. And there's slightly too much of it! Never thought I'd hear a positively bassy electrostat but here it is. The mids are unchanged, but a little less hollow sounding. Right now, they're next to perfect, with one caveat, which I'll get to later. The treble is still rolled off. Using the treble booster on the X5 improves things slightly (I have to use the headphone out, not the lineout for this), but when pushed too far, the treble becomes grainy and scratchy. It's probably the amp's doing, though I'll need to hear the SR-003 on a good amp to be sure.

The main sonic problem now is the same one that I've had on the HD650. There seems to be extra bass on each frequency, in places where it shouldn't be. When listening to piano, you can almost swear that the notes that you know are in a specific octave actually sound like they're an octave below, or at least are lower in register. The pitch is right, detail and tone is right, but the note simply sounds too deep! Real piano doesn't sound like that, at least not to my ears. I've ran into this on the HD650, though not on the HD600, and once again I run into it here. I don't really like it, but it does sound very "nice." It gives everything a layer of extra lushness and warmth that isn't normally there. I guess if you like a warmer sound, you'll love this, but I don't care too much for it, except with some music where it does wonders (try old school mellow psychedelic rock, or some of the newer rock/electronica hybrids).

If I had to make an analogy to what the SR-001 sounds like now:

Imagine yourself sitting in a hazy, smoke-filled room, pleasantly smashed on your substance of choice, surrounded by attractive members of the opposite sex (or same sex if you're into that kinda thing), and listening to an ultra high-end system. You're buzzed, everything is warm and pleasantly glowing. The room is dark, the confines are smoky and hazy, and edges are slightly blurred, but in your pleasant state you can still make out everything that goes on around you.

The SR-001's sound now is kinda like that. The treble is muted and decidedly lacking in energy, so everything sounds very dark and, well, hazy, even though every single ounce of detail is still there. The lower end - bass to midbass to midrange - is so beautifully smooth that it almost sounds like it's smothering you in a blanket of pleasantness. The soundstage is definitely not canalphone-like anymore, it's more of a full-size can thing, though the imaging is, once again, not very precise - it's a bit smoky and diffuse, though not wavery.

Sounds nice, doesn't it? In a colored sort of way. Well, it is. I have a hard time to decide which I want to listen to now, SR-404's or this. I have never before heard such a pleasant combination of detail and warmth, even if I'm not a fan of an overly warm sound.

I expect that once the "new toy" syndrome wears off - and I feel like I've completely rediscovered my SR-001's - I would be qualified to be more objective about them. But for now, I'm in love. Again.

More later

 

[wualta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by catscratch Don't get the SR-34 or similar systems, as they are electret headphones, which use a permanently charged diaphragm, and not true electrostatics.

Don't say that so loud! There are sensitive AKG K340 owners about! Boy, if Philodox ever caught you saying his K340's tweeter wasn't a true electrostat, he might sic Raistlin on you, and Gott help you then.

There's nothing really wrong with starting out with the SR-30/34 Pro; it's just that people tend to pay too much for them, which means they've paid too much for what they get, a sure recipe for disappointment. The SR-30 Pro has very good "headstage", it plays loudly, and though it sounds midrangey out of the box (a tradeoff for the good headstage), it'll EQ up very nicely indeed. While I would argue the niggling technical point and assert that electret 'phones are in fact "true" electrostats in every respect, they're not great electrostats for all the reasons you mention. This doesn't mean they can't be great 'phones-- for the price-- it's just that they can't show off the extremest capabilities of the big expensive 'stats we know and love, especially the buttersmooth shimmery mids and highs, the uncanny sense that the 'phones are alive.

However, and this is very important, the higher price of the Stax electrets buys you entree into the world of Stax transformer boxes and direct-drive amps, including the latest high-bias ones (electret 'phones ignore bias voltage fed to them). It's like buying an old Nikon F camera body. Lots of wonderful stuff can be plugged into it.

By the way, the SR-80/84 is the exact same driver as the 30/34 tarted up to look like a baby Lambda. Don't pay any extra for it.

The problem with the Stax electrets for the povertystricken beginner is that arguably better sound can be had from the non-electret Stax clones (the ones branded Realistic, Marantz and Magnavox) for the same auction money and often for much less ($40-50). The clones sound good, though they're mellow rather than laser-sharp. Their disadvantage is that they appear to plug into Stax amps and transformer boxes but won't actually work, not without some modification of the plug or the use of a homebrew adaptor.

The above is true as long as we restrict the discussion to Stax electrets. The Sony ECR-500 and Toshiba HR-910/810 (and Rotel's clone of the 810, the RH-930) are electret 'phones with abilities that put them in a class by themselves, though keep in mind they are orphans restricted to their own dedicated transformer boxes. The Stax SR-30/80 Pro are good 'phones and have certain system advantages (like being able to drive the accompanying SRD-4 transformer box with a T-amp), but if you don't or won't have EQ handy you won't care for the way they sound.


So you're oh so right about there being a big jump in quality potential once the leap is made to the "real" 'stat Staxen, and it's not an awfully huge leap in price; instead of $60 and up, we're looking at maybe $120 minimum, more like $150 and up. Even the 1975 SR-X Mk3 with its SRD-7 transformer box will be shiveringly good if driven by a nice beefy stereo amp. In this price category, we're looking at transformer drive, where the transformers in the box crank the tens of volts coming out of that beefy stereo amp into the hundreds of volts needed to drive the 'phones.

If, however, the 'stat seeker on a budget doesn't already have said beefy amp, then, as you say, maybe something like the early Stax Lambda, paired with a Stax SRM-1 Mk2 direct-drive amp, makes more sense. The SRM-1 Mk2 will also power any of the earlier Stax 'phones, including the electret models, and make them sound their smoothest, although not necessarily their most dynamic. Problem is, now we're well over $200 for the combo, usually closer to $400, and of course a good chunk more for the Pro versions of both headphones and amp. Then there's the inconsistent, outrageous, idiotic overbidding on all things Stax on eBay...

Anyway. Glad to hear you got your SR-001s working right. Electrostatic bass is not only possible, it may be preferable. But don't say that too loud either.