[blessingx]

I found this NYTimes summary (full text here) of a lecture Roy F. Baumeister gave recently here in San Francisco, interesting. It's deals with reproduction rates and causes for social risk/motivational differences. It's not quite the normal fluff on the subject and thought some of you would enjoy it too. Any comments?

Quote:

What percentage of your ancestors were men? No, it’s not 50 percent...

 

[ken36]

I believe the moderators should shut this thread down on the grounds that I'm presently biting my tongue for fear of saying something political. It hurts a lot.

 

[Judge Crandall]

Skimmed through the speech, and it certainly is a provocative viewpoint, with interesting conclusions. I feel like he's making a lot of unwarranted assumptions, though, and I'm inclined to think that his conclusions aren't totally valid. Don't have time now, but I'll try and post some thoughts later on after a closer reading of the speech.

 

[marvin]

Quote:

To maximize reproduction, a culture needs all the wombs it can get, but a few penises can do the job. There is usually a penile surplus.

I think the core of the article can be found right there. Well, 'cept for the misuse of penile. The speech does sounds rather like the career seppuku that Summers inflicted on himself in January 2005...

Either way, I like it. It's a well thought out and reasonably concise explanation of why men have historically driven progress.

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judge Crandall /img/forum/go_quote.gif Skimmed through the speech, and it certainly is a provocative viewpoint, with interesting conclusions. I feel like he's making a lot of unwarranted assumptions, though, and I'm inclined to think that his conclusions aren't totally valid. Don't have time now, but I'll try and post some thoughts later on after a closer reading of the speech.

It's the New York Times - that's exactly what I expect from it and why I don't read it.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Men and women are motivated by exactly the same thing, the alleged difference is pure myth. The methods might be different, but it's all about A#1 for the vast majority of people, man or woman.

 

[Jigglybootch]

Meh.

 

[Illah]

Did any of you read, or even skim the document? Picking out a sentence to criticize puts you on the level of a loudmouth pundit...not very high ground for a debate.

The basic premise of the document is the reproductive differences between men and women, and how those differences spawned society and culture out of tribalism. Just as wolves will expel adolescent males, there is a percentage of human men who will never reproduce (the lone wolves). This has caused men to evolved different personality traits than women, who typically don't worry about such expulsions and are more geared to nurturing and protecting the homefront.

The speaker asserts that the traits evolved by 'lone wolves' motivate them to go out in the world and take risks, form many relationships that are somewhat shallow compared to womens', explore new territory, expand their borders, and thus expand the general sense of interconnectivity among a populace. This in turn enables wider culture, as opposed to animals who only maintain small, largely blood-related groups.

Quote:

Men and women are motivated by exactly the same thing, the alleged difference is pure myth.

To claim men and women are exactly the same is a modern cultural sentiment, and frankly I don't agree. We are equally *capable*, but we are not the same and neither are our motivations. Clear differences are seen in any animal species, and we are no different.

--Illah

 

[F107plus5]

The Space Shuttle just landed a few minutes ago. I know it landed cause it flew close enough over our house that the overpressure(sonic boom)was violent enough that it actually blew our front door open! It's true, it did! It sounded as if there were two explosions right down the road!

....I gotta fix that front door latch before hurricane season really gets going.

Anyway; the shuttle had seven people aboard and two of them were young ladies.

They just got back from the International Space Station after visiting the three members of the crew. Three guys.

....no kids will come from that bunch.

They do have some gals who spend time on the station though. But they're careful not to send ladies of reproducing age. There is still some real concern of beginning life in that particular environment.

 

[JadeEast]

"Lone Wolf" theories are fine but you have to put the guys comments in some kind of context evolutionary psychology is a field full of just so stories. In the the article there is the mention of the worth of individual females well except in China where people have chosen to abort female babies or India where they have in part burned a wife who's husbands have died.

As far as more females breeding in the part sure but there is also a cost of death during childbirth. More women die from having sex than men. Sexual selection only comes into play if an animal can survive to the age of maturity the "lone wolf" better stick around to protect the cub and mom if he wants those genes to get passed on. In fact I would say that given how long it takes for humans to reach sexual maturity the absence of a cooperative system to raise children would be a disadvantage evolutionary.

Blah blah blah.

Alpha males.

Blah blah blah.

Sexual size dimorphism.

Blah blah blah.

Sperm competition.

Blah blah blah

Testicle size.

Blah blah blah.

 

[ken36]

[size=x-large]Ric, You unleashed a hornets nest.
[/size]

 

[marvin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif In the the article there is the mention of the worth of individual females well except in China where people have chosen to abort female babies or India where they have in part burned a wife who's husbands have died.

From this standpoint, care for females ends at keeping them alive, healthy, and well fed so that they can have children and perpetuate your tribe. The ability to have kids by far outweighs any other skills they may have in a survival situation. All other resources go to the men as they're the ones doing the dumb stuff that gives your tribe an advantage over the other tribes in the area.

The behavior that you're describing evolved long after man left the "tribe survival first" stage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif As far as more females breeding in the part sure but there is also a cost of death during childbirth. More women die from having sex than men. Sexual selection only comes into play if an animal can survive to the age of maturity the "lone wolf" better stick around to protect the cub and mom if he wants those genes to get passed on.

Which raises the worth of each individual female even more. Without females, your tribe dies. If there's a high childbirth mortality rate that dramatically lowers the number of births per female, females get even more valuable, not less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JadeEast /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact I would say that given how long it takes for humans to reach sexual maturity the absence of a cooperative system to raise children would be a disadvantage evolutionary.

Child raising is cooperative in this sort of low individual male worth culture. The cooperation happens between women though, instead of between a woman and her mate.

 

[redshifter]

There is at least ONE good thing about THIS male. Giggity.

 

[blessingx]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken36 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ric, You unleashed a hornets nest.

Not the intent!

Some of the assumptions may in the end be wrong, but as opposed to the much discussed sexual partners quantity gender difference, etc. I thought this argued the case in an interesting way not often cited.

Marvin is right about keeping the time frame in place. I can't yet tell if redshifter is right.

 

[EyeAmEye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illah /img/forum/go_quote.gif To claim men and women are exactly the same is a modern cultural sentiment, and frankly I don't agree. We are equally *capable*, but we are not the same and neither are our motivations. Clear differences are seen in any animal species, and we are no different. --Illah

Modern sentiment because I'm here to observe it. I don't speculate on the history of the species because I have no clue what drove the caveman, and neither do the experts who claim to know. From what I observe every single day, money and power are the primary motivation in both species (as can be evidenced quite obviously by men in many areas and by women who marry and/or are attracted to those with power and wealth). Those who deny such exists are those that feel power and wealth is unattainable (not an absolute, of course).

I read the document. It's babble, and pure speculation. Well argued and fleshed out, but babble all the same.