[ford2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bada bing /img/forum/go_quote.gif One data point that is counter to this idea is the difference between the Senn HD650 and HD800. Lots of people who had loved the HD650 for years then experienced the HD800. Whether or not the HD800 was deemed to be worth the $1400 tag, there are very few that would pick up the HD650 if the choice was available. I know for my part, I haven't listened to HD650's for an hour total after the HD800 arrived, inspite of many hundreds of enjoyable hours before. There can be a distinct step change in sound quality. Whether it's unnecessary or extravagant depends on priorities and pocketbook.

There is the fact that if you go back to the 650 then you have wasted $1400,most people will find reasons why they are worth it to justify the cost.
And lets face if they cost more they must be better,even if it is just for the bragging rights.

 

[brooce]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tribestros /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thoughts?

Long story short: welcome to Marketing.
Short story long:

1) People buy on status just as much as 'reality'.
2) Perception is based on many things: price, look, feel, so much more.
3) I still laugh when I see things like silver accents on the HD 595 versus the HD 555. 'Elite' headphone holders versus none, and wordy marketing materials with elaborate photos and surroundings. All this can be considered dishonesty or simply 'marketing' to a set demographic with no sonic (or otherwise) benefits whatsoever, but it sure makes it easier to differentiate and justifies - in a lot of buyers minds - the 'value' in buying such a thing. Its visual benefits and tangibles that somehow 'convince' the buyer and those he associates with that this product truly has to be prestige.
4) Similar marketing exists for food, cars, clothes, EVERYTHING. Why do they do this?
5) They do this because different markets allow maximum extraction of money IF certain desires are satisfied (status, prestige, technical competence, so many subconscious desires we have too).
6) Working in this way, there is no doubt a certain percentage of the Target Market will always find something not worth paying for, but there will always be those that do and will pay for it.
7) Now to be fair, some of these higher-end products require disproportionately more work and can't reap the benefits of truly high-volume mass production, so this will influence things too.
8) There will always be those who will find certain products worth paying for, and there will always be people where money is no object. Marketing has to cater to these. These products also increase the prestige of the brand, even if they only sell 5, the prestige of the brand is enhanced by the knowledge that the company makes such a product, which is important to their brand image.

 

[bada bing]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ford2 /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is the fact that if you go back to the 650 then you have wasted $1400,most people will find reasons why they are worth it to justify the cost. And lets face if they cost more they must be better,even if it is just for the bragging rights.

and on the other side of the arm chair psychoanalysis, there is the "sour grapes" effect. It usually comes from wanting something unobtainable or personally unjustifiable.

Justifying a purchase that has doubt attached and sour grapes over being unable or unwilling to obtain a desired item are mirror image phenomenon. Both of them require evangelizing to garner support in an attempt to validate. Both are fairly common here on head-fi. Neither contributes anything positive.

 

[johnwmclean]

It's not just the sonics, my HD800's are a status symbol. They say, I've got more money than you (that's the big drawcard). Who'd spend $1400 bucks on a headphone? Only a truly devoted music lover with exquisite taste. Only the keenest audiophiles need apply here, they'll make all your so called buddies phones sound like they're underwater. Oh check out my sig, haha yes that's right HD800's little man. I'm guaranteed perfection just like the ad says, the only reason these puppies won't sound up to scratch is because you haven't spent a zillion bucks on your ancillory equipment - time to upgrade!

 

[grokit]

Definitely diminishing returns. I am totally happy with my $600 pair of Polk tower speakers, they are a great match for my a/v receiver and I think they sound "great".
But that doesn't keep me from drooling over a pair of $2200 Klipsches, which for almost four times as much coin may or may not sound twice as good. Subjectively.

 

[Orcin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tribestros /img/forum/go_quote.gif No that's not what I meant at all. What I mean is the idea of upgrading for $700, or even spending $200 on headphones is, questionable. because the changes are so little it's pointless to spend that kind of money on something so minuscule.

This is the problem with your premise. The changes are not minuscule. The improvement from low-end phones to high-end phones is easily recognized and appreciated with the proper associated equipment.

So your argument doesn't make any sense. It's like saying there is no point in buying a Ferrari because a Ford Focus is so close that the difference can't be recognized.

 

[Epik]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin /img/forum/go_quote.gif This is the problem with your premise. The changes are not minuscule. The improvement from low-end phones to high-end phones is easily recognized and appreciated with the proper associated equipment. So your argument doesn't make any sense. It's like saying there is no point in buying a Ferrari because a Ford Focus is so close that the difference can't be recognized.

I don't think the differences between a focus and a 430 scuderia are quite as subjective and slight as the differences between a pair of $100 headphones and $1000 ones.

The upgrades, while minuscule or even nonexistent, are still probably worth it to a some.

 

[Armaegis]

I buy expensive things to gain street cred with other people who buy expensive things.

 

[oqvist]

But does that apply to headphones? It certainly apply to mobile phones or watches though that´s for sure. People who don´t know anything about tech needs Iphones all of a sudden.

Who think you are cool for spending 1500$ on a set of headphones. I would have to wear hoods if I was going out with my Ed 8 in public lol

 

[nealric]

Quote:

I don't think the differences between a focus and a 430 scuderia are quite as subjective and slight as the differences between a pair of $100 headphones and $1000 ones.

I think a better analogy between "good" headphones and top of the line headphones is this: Corvette Z06 vs. Ferarri f430 scudiera

The Corvette is $75,000
The Ferarri $227,000

Both are low slung, fast sports cars with V8 engines. Both are faster than 99% of the cars out there and already way faster than anyone needs on a public road. In fact, there are compelling reasons why the corvette might be a better car. It has more torque. It can get by with less (and cheaper) maintenance. Upgrades are more readily found.

Yet, Ferarri is still in business. For various reasons, people appreciate the qualities of a Ferarri enough to pay three times as much for very similar cars.

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oqvist /img/forum/go_quote.gif But does that apply to headphones? It certainly apply to mobile phones or watches though that´s for sure. People who don´t know anything about tech needs Iphones all of a sudden. Who think you are cool for spending 1500$ on a set of headphones. I would have to wear hoods if I was going out with my Ed 8 in public lol

It gains you cred on this forum and with audiophiles. Obviously to many people here that is very important.

The iphone may be a status symbol in that it require some dispensable income, but it's not on the level of a luxury watch at all. Bottom line is the iphone is very very cool. People like it because they enjoy actually using it, so in that way it is very different from status symbols like jewelry.

EDIT I think these car analogies are way off base. A ferarri f430 is clearly way superior to a corvette z06 for example. That is easily confirmed by performance (not to mention build quality). On the other hand there is nothing compellingly better about an ultrasone ed 8 in compared to a sennheiser hd650 (or a grado ps1000 compared to an akg k701!). With cars performance is easily quantifiable. With high end audiophile equipment performance differences are in the mind of the beholder.

 

[nealric]

Quote:

That is easily confirmed by performance (not to mention build quality).

Check the numbers for yourself. The differences in performance are actually minuscule. In fact, the Zo6 zr1 (100k) is a decent bit faster. Build quality is subjective. Plus, the corvette has certain interior features the Ferarri lacks (like a heads-up display).

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nealric /img/forum/go_quote.gif Check the numbers for yourself. The differences in performance are actually minuscule. In fact, the Zo6 zr1 (100k) is a decent bit faster. Build quality is subjective. Plus, the corvette has certain interior features the Ferarri lacks (like a heads-up display).

The corvette might have some bigger numbers like in top speed or torque, but the ferarri handles much better, shifts faster, stops faster, is more balanced, etc etc. Top speed in these kind of cars is something like max power handling in headphones. It means something but isn't really much of a consideration. How many people are buying a corvette so they can go 205 mph instead of a mere 190mph?
Things like handling might be harder to quantify than top speed, but the point is they can be quantified, unlike PRAT for example which is pretty much meaningless. If we say a chassis is balanced we know what that means physically. When a reviewer says a headphone is balanced we can only guess what that means in their mind.

 

[nealric]

Quote:

The corvette might have some bigger numbers like in top speed or torque, but the ferarri handles much better, shifts faster, stops faster, is more balanced, etc etc.

It's not just numbers, the Zr1 Z06 laps the famous Nurburging race track a full 14 seconds faster than the F430.
The Z06 zr1 also does brake faster. Much faster: 60-0 in 96 feet. The Ferarri does it in 109.
Skidpad numbers better as well.


I'm not saying this because I am a Corvette Fanboy. If someone asked me which one I want, it would be the Ferarri. The point is that there are ephemeral reasons why people will pay more for an extremely similar product. The other point is that marketing and cache really do work (hence the reason people dismiss offhand the suggestion that the corvette could be faster).

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif On the other hand there is nothing compellingly better about an ultrasone ed 8 in compared to a sennheiser hd650 (or a grado ps1000 compared to an akg k701!). With cars performance is easily quantifiable. With high end audiophile equipment performance differences are in the mind of the beholder.

Hold a sec. Let me add a different POV here.

I think this is getting out of hand. I do have an Ed8 and I did have an HD650. I do realize that I paid a premium price for the Ed8. I specifically chose the Ed8 over the HD800 because I was more interested in the Ed8 sound characteristics than the HD800's.

While I do concede, and very much so, that the HD650 is the better bang for the buck, I disagree that there's no compelling difference between the Ed8 and the HD650's. To my ears, I personally find the Ed8 to sound a LOT better than the HD650. 4x better? NO. However, it was enough for me to, without indecision, sell my HD650's. But it's all about the point of diminishing returns, as well as having to pay for the fancy materials and packaging used to dress up these flagships, all really having nothing to do with enhancing the sound.

So while I do admit that we're being taken for a ride to a degree, I don't think that this is purely the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bada bing /img/forum/go_quote.gif and on the other side of the arm chair psychoanalysis, there is the "sour grapes" effect. It usually comes from wanting something unobtainable or personally unjustifiable. Justifying a purchase that has doubt attached and sour grapes over being unable or unwilling to obtain a desired item are mirror image phenomenon. Both of them require evangelizing to garner support in an attempt to validate. Both are fairly common here on head-fi. Neither contributes anything positive.

This is so true as well, i.e., a lot of sour grapes and trying to seek comfort in not being able to purchase high end cans for whatever reason.