[AdamCalifornia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seidhepriest /img/forum/go_quote.gif There're several parts of the problem... 1. Companding ("compression" is used more often, but the real term is companding - compression/expanding) of CD masters, with volume pushed into oblivion. This is pretty much digital square distortion applied to a CD master, and that is what makes a record most irritating, by destroying dynamics. 2. The "superstereo" effect that is created when a speaker-stereo record is played through headphones, with unnatural separation of both channels. This inevitably makes speaker-stereo (not binaural) records fatiguing when played through headphones. Special crossfeed (a la Blumlein shuffle) is required for "speaker-stereo" played through headphones. There's BS2B, with plugins for Foobar2000/Winamp. It was made specifically to prevent listening fatigue with headphones. 3. The proximity of headphones to tympanic membranes and the principle of sound pressure changes happening in the ears or next to the ears, make them much more fatiguing than speakers, sound from which is dampened by air and by human head. Sound waves generated next to the ear instead of out "in the open". It's way easier to get deafened by mixing in headphones than with speakers. It's also way more fatiguing to mix in headphones. It's mostly parts 1 and 2 which make headphones hurt. Part 3 is directly linked to 1 & 2 (listeners turn the volume up when not hearing something clearly). As for high-frequency distortion products, most headphones are already equalised to simulate high-frequency dampening by the ear pinnae and to prevent skull bone resonation. By the Headroom measurements, Grado headphones aren't though. But they're also the most rock-friendly by sounding... Unnatural sounding is also fatiguing. So "dark" headphones wouldn't be the solution, rather ones with a gentle sounding (like the old K-240 Monitor) and clear imaging. Anything that doesn't reproduce the music close to how it sounds naturally is fatiguing (one has to "listen through" instead of "listening to"), anything un-truthful. The most un-tiring, pleasant sounding is natural sounding.

Obviously listening thru headphones to anything is not natural and is (after a while) fatiguing.


Let's consider a trivial example:

You're listening to a classical music, say Beethoven's adagio.

Then you switch to a heavy metal Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or to some extreme metal crap.
Assume that you're listening to both the classical and heavy metal music pieces equally loud.

The sound of heavy metal music will 'hurt' (ringing, pulsations etc) your ears much faster.
There are several reasons - Heavy metal is much more intense
( eg. onslaught of guitars, Duelling guitatrists etc.) than the classical music.
But I think that the main reason is the distortion introduced in heavy metal music on purpose.
Once I've watched a DVD with Black Sabbath and Tony Iommi said that
they introduced the distortion so that the sound was bigger!!!
This fact is known and nothing is new here.

Again, compare listening to, say, Chopin piano music and Judas Priest's "Painkiller'.
I can listen to Chopin music, say for 1 hour without any break
(although there's some mild fatigue due to the headphone listening).
Now try to listen to "Painkiller" and other heavy metal intense AND distorted music
for one hour straight. - I can't do this!

A final note. You cannot listen to heavy metal quietly. It makes no sense!
It's like kissing a woman thru the window glass!
I am not talking about extremely or very loud listening, but it's got to be loud.

I'll hear you on the Heavy Metal

Side of the Moon

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia /img/forum/go_quote.gif the extreme metal crap.

How to make friends and influence people.


Lol, you're an idiot, plenty of Extreme Metal encorporates Orchestral['classical'] music. Listen to the latest Dimmu Borgir album.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Shomie911 Everyone has their own opinions and you should not criticize or demean others because of them.

 

[Svperstar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seidhepriest /img/forum/go_quote.gif Special crossfeed (a la Blumlein shuffle) is required for "speaker-stereo" played through headphones. There's BS2B, with plugins for Foobar2000/Winamp. It was made specifically to prevent listening fatigue with headphones.

Great post, A+++ would read again, I just wanted to add I have never heard a crossfeed plugin that didn't significantly distort the sound and lead to a very unnatural listening experience, though I am downloading BS2B right now.

 

[Seidhepriest]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's consider a trivial example: You're listening to a classical music, say Beethoven's adagio. Then you switch to a heavy metal Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or to some extreme metal crap. Assume that you're listening to both the classical and heavy metal music pieces equally loud. The sound of heavy metal music will 'hurt' (ringing, pulsations etc) your ears much faster. There are several reasons - Heavy metal is much more intense ( eg. onslaught of guitars, Duelling guitatrists etc.) than the classical music. But I think that the main reason is the distortion introduced in heavy metal music on purpose. Once I've watched a DVD with Black Sabbath and Tony Iommi said that they introduced the distortion so that the sound was bigger!!! This fact is known and nothing is new here. Again, compare listening to, say, Chopin piano music and Judas Priest's "Painkiller'. I can listen to Chopin music, say for 1 hour without any break (although there's some mild fatigue due to the headphone listening). Now try to listen to "Painkiller" and other heavy metal intense AND distorted music for one hour straight. - I can't do this!

Yes, but. Newer albums often are more fatiguing because of companding. So some dynamic restoration is required... It will sound a bit weird, but Izotope Vinyl and Trash do the job of dynamic restoration. Vinyl seems to limit the dynamics of waves to those of a vinyl record (where rough -96-to-0 transitions are impossible mechanically), and Trash with its emulation of analogue bandpass filters restores dynamics even better. Vinyl is free, Trash is expensive. Just about the price of a headphone amplifier...

BS2B's "easy" presets sounded rather soft on the ears... It doesn't distort the sound as much either.

The solution here for headphone playback, including music with distortion, has been a chain of DX plugins (through the Adaptx DX plugin adapter for Winamp): Sonitus Phase (out of the Cakewalk package, usually off)>Izotope Vinyl (usually off)>Izotope Trash (essential)>Waves S1 Stereoimager+(essential).

Here's a screenshot of the setup.

BS2B has the advantage of eating less resources than the above hogpack. Also it's free (Izotope and Waves plugins are meant for people who work professionally with audio, though it's a bit of a shame really, as they can restore the original ambience of an album by restoring its dynamics and soundstage).

The S1 Stereoimager plugins implement Blumlein shuffle, which is similar to the crossfeed technique in BS2B (not as "powerful" perhaps), though intended more for correcting loudspeaker stereo image (by introducing high-frequency crossfeed - "shuffle" and correcting low-frequency phase, which usually aren't "correct" in a stereo record even for loudspeakers).
The fundamentals really are simple - bass waves are not directional, and radiate away from the source (like waves from a stone thrown into water), while high frequencies are directional, but easily bouncing off obstacles (and "worming" their way into the ears). The trick is that in the real world, there's no "directional" sound coming from either left or right; each ear always gets a share of the other's perceived sound.

Classical music records are usually made with microphones set in front of the stage, unlike studio metal or rock, which often have each instrument's part recorded separately and then mixed together. Those records can have hard pans with no crossfeed at all.

Also with either the above setup or BS2B metal does sound less fatiguing and more convincing at lower loudness (right now - Karelia's "Raise"). Anything does; Tangerine Dream's "Tyranny of Beauty" regained its original 1994 atmosphere and ambience (the CD issue suffers from mild overcompression - mild compared to some of the newer CDs). There's still the "orchestra in the skull" effect, but it's a pleasant "orchestra", not as harsh as without the processing.

For pieces prepared for portable players, the BS2B Foobar2000 plugin is probably best, as Foobar2000 does 32-bit internal processing for everything, including format conversion.

 

[BigSurSpoon]

Wait.... I listen to metal through the cans and classical through the speakers.. What is wrong with me???????

 

[steevdeadman]

Try listening to the new Exodus album through IEMs at my macs half volume...

sheeeeeeesh... Thank god I stand in front of 500 Watts of bass amp every week... because I wouldn't be able to take anything headphones dole out

-s

 

[AdamCalifornia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seidhepriest /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, but. Newer albums often are more fatiguing because of companding. So some dynamic restoration is required... It will sound a bit weird, but Izotope Vinyl and Trash do the job of dynamic restoration. Vinyl seems to limit the dynamics of waves to those of a vinyl record (where rough -96-to-0 transitions are impossible mechanically), and Trash with its emulation of analogue bandpass filters restores dynamics even better. Vinyl is free, Trash is expensive. Just about the price of a headphone amplifier... BS2B's "easy" presets sounded rather soft on the ears... It doesn't distort the sound as much either. The solution here for headphone playback, including music with distortion, has been a chain of DX plugins (through the Adaptx DX plugin adapter for Winamp): Sonitus Phase (out of the Cakewalk package, usually off)>Izotope Vinyl (usually off)>Izotope Trash (essential)>Waves S1 Stereoimager+(essential). Here's a screenshot of the setup. BS2B has the advantage of eating less resources than the above hogpack. Also it's free (Izotope and Waves plugins are meant for people who work professionally with audio, though it's a bit of a shame really, as they can restore the original ambience of an album by restoring its dynamics and soundstage). The S1 Stereoimager plugins implement Blumlein shuffle, which is similar to the crossfeed technique in BS2B (not as "powerful" perhaps), though intended more for correcting loudspeaker stereo image (by introducing high-frequency crossfeed - "shuffle" and correcting low-frequency phase, which usually aren't "correct" in a stereo record even for loudspeakers). The fundamentals really are simple - bass waves are not directional, and radiate away from the source (like waves from a stone thrown into water), while high frequencies are directional, but easily bouncing off obstacles (and "worming" their way into the ears). The trick is that in the real world, there's no "directional" sound coming from either left or right; each ear always gets a share of the other's perceived sound. Classical music records are usually made with microphones set in front of the stage, unlike studio metal or rock, which often have each instrument's part recorded separately and then mixed together. Those records can have hard pans with no crossfeed at all. Also with either the above setup or BS2B metal does sound less fatiguing and more convincing at lower loudness (right now - Karelia's "Raise"). Anything does; Tangerine Dream's "Tyranny of Beauty" regained its original 1994 atmosphere and ambience (the CD issue suffers from mild overcompression - mild compared to some of the newer CDs). There's still the "orchestra in the skull" effect, but it's a pleasant "orchestra", not as harsh as without the processing. For pieces prepared for portable players, the BS2B Foobar2000 plugin is probably best, as Foobar2000 does 32-bit internal processing for everything, including format conversion.

Another excellent post by you. Thanks a lot!
It's a pleasure to read your posts.

Where have you learned all that? Is this stuff you taught us a common knowledge on this site?

Adam

P.S.
I chose not to respond to the extremely inane post by an extreme idiot above.

 

[souperman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia /img/forum/go_quote.gif P.S. I chose not to respond to the extremely inane post by an extreme idiot above.

And by doing that...you have responded...

 

[jwilldermood]

I think listening to "Heavy Metal" with headphones is dangerous because you might unintentionally summon a demon from hell. Then what are you going to do?

 

[Mink]

I can follow most arguments and agree on most parts, but my experiences are different.
To me the way a cd is recorded and mastered is more important and I mean the dryness of it.

I can listen to Sonic Youth's loud and distorted guitars for hours without ear-fatigue and some distortion are extremely high pitched and shrill.
But Bach's violin concertos (Wllfisch, Virgin records) for instance is mastered/recorded so loud and dry in the upper mids/low treble in certain parts it actually hurts my ears.

For me it is mostly dryness and hardness in the recording that causes ear fatigue, not particularly close-miked and distorted guitars.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Two things:

- Distortion is nothing else than compression. It's a form of compression that heavily alters the original signal, but the main effect of distortion is that it cuts off the peaks of the original guitarsignal, which results in a reduced dynamic. That's what makes the sound "fat" or "intense".

- To really compare a classical piece and a heavy metal song loudnesswise, you'd need to take a look at the average loudness, not at the peaks. Measured this way, the heavy metal song measures much louder, although the peak level of the two songs might be exactly the same. Even putting compression through distortion aside for a moment, its not the same if George Clapton is picking a string, lets say, 100 times a minute to a peak of 80 db, or Kerry King picking the same string 300 times a minute to 80 db. Just think of the "net strain time" for your ears within that minute.

But if you're really heavy metal, you shouldn't have asked anyway. Just turn your volume gently and steadily up. Reduce it a tad when your nose starts bleeding. Done.

 

[MH79]

I think gabba, breakcore and drum and bass can often have just as much distortion as metal - but as long as you don't have your volume cranked to high you should be fine IMO.

 

[AdamCalifornia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif Two things: ...... But if you're really heavy metal, you shouldn't have asked anyway. Just turn your volume gently and steadily up. Reduce it a tad when your nose starts bleeding. Done.

.... but does beer go together with Heavy Metal? See here!

 

[Seidhepriest]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamCalifornia /img/forum/go_quote.gif Another excellent post by you. Thanks a lot! It's a pleasure to read your posts. Where have you learned all that? Is this stuff you taught us a common knowledge on this site? Adam

It's been very bothering the last few years - how is it that previously, in the eighties-nineties, say, records could be sounding smoother and more like music than nowadays? With kit back then having more limited frequency range, less clarity, more hiss, etc.?

Obviously there's more to it than what's out on the surface.

Basically, what makes music sound musical? From the standing point of sound engineering? Why do vinyl and magnetic tape still sound warmer than CDs?

So, as it turned out, CDs can have relatively harsh dynamics compared to vinyl (where harsh 0-fullrange transitions are impossible physically), phono cartridges have a kind of mechanical crossfeed similar to the Blumlein shuffle effect (high-frequency crosstalk), and magnetic tape can have overtones formed. Which give an additional warm depth to sound.

And, guess what, the rather expensive (but needed professionally...) Izotope Trash plugin can emulate analogue bandpass filtering with gradually-shifting dynamics (not harsh stuff like on CDs, more vinyl-like) and create a magnetic tape "ghost" image.

There might be some free or cheaper plugins out there dedicated specifically to dynamic smoothing. Trash is really expensive (US $200, though they had it on offer at one time

)

Stereo imaging really isn't "stereo" as it doesn't take into account angular perception of human hearing, and that was known way back in the 1930s to Alan Blumlein, who devised both a recording method and a stereo image correction method. His correction method, "Blumlein shuffle" was to convert a recording to mid-side stereo from L-R stereo, then adjust the difference channel by frequency alteration. It used to be very tricky with analogue equalisers, and it was easy to botch up a recording in the process, so the technique never became popular.
Blumlein shuffle generates crossfeed cues similar to binaural recordings (his recording method is also very similar to binaural recording). It is often mentioned as improving headphone playback.

Here's a Stereophile test CD track description, demonstrating microphone pickup techniques, mentioning Blumlein techniques.

There's a set of professional plugins made by Waves that do stereo imaging and implement Blumlein shuffle. Again, there might be a free counterpart. BS2B does a very similar processing, and geared specifically towards headphones.

It's all relatively common knowledge, as in it's stuff that's out there on the 'Net, just takes some link-hopping and searching.

The BS2B website has some references. Headwize had some material on that. A search for "Blumlein shuffle" might give some results.