Is it even possible to meter headphone quality by specs before purchase?

Feb 8, 2016 at 9:52 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 20

0xHamsterFarts0

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If I pick five manufacturers from here and set a budget for <=$100.00 what would I use besides user reviews and that price-range to actually meter greatness?
 
I'm a noob, but generic specs to go by to me seem to be driver-size and frequency-response and then features like noise cancellation and simulated surround sound. Driver material from what I gather seems to be a weak unreliable metric. Even identical frequency-response, driver-material, and driver-size seems to see a lot of difference between models and makes.
 
Feb 8, 2016 at 10:08 PM Post #2 of 20
Not so much.
You can check frequency response measurments, THD measurments and so on, but those are still quite tricky to understand.
 
Most of the times open back headphones offer better overall sound quality than closed back headphones
(but do not provide isolation so in-door use is a must)
 
Under 100 you should consider the Yamaha HPH-200, Pioneer SE-A1000 and Takstar HI-2050
(Three quaity open back headphones with different sound signatures)
 
Personal preferences play a key role when it comes to perceived sound quality.
 
If you want a closed back headphone the Takstar Pro 80 is among the very best under 100usd.
 
Feb 8, 2016 at 10:16 PM Post #3 of 20
  If I pick five manufacturers from here and set a budget for <=$100.00 what would I use besides user reviews and that price-range to actually meter greatness?
 
I'm a noob, but generic specs to go by to me seem to be driver-size and frequency-response and then features like noise cancellation and simulated surround sound. Driver material from what I gather seems to be a weak unreliable metric. Even identical frequency-response, driver-material, and driver-size seems to see a lot of difference between models and makes.


If you want to see what it really takes to do accurate measurements of our collective gear, I would urge you to read the head-fi blogger @Brooko, who currently has an excellent piece on how he measures gear. Needless to say, it is an impressive bit of equipment.
 
That said, I am +1 on all of Me x3's recommendations except the Pioneer, which I haven't heard. I would also add the Sennheiser HD518 or 558 (depending on current pricing). Can't go wrong with any of those. Good luck!
 
Feb 9, 2016 at 1:21 AM Post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0xHamsterFarts0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

Is it even possible to meter headphone quality by specs before purchase?

If I pick five manufacturers from here and set a budget for <=$100.00 what would I use besides user reviews and that price-range to actually meter greatness?
 
I'm a noob, but generic specs to go by to me seem to be driver-size and frequency-response and then features like noise cancellation and simulated surround sound. Driver material from what I gather seems to be a weak unreliable metric. Even identical frequency-response, driver-material, and driver-size seems to see a lot of difference between models and makes.

 
Go to Headphone.com and Headfonia, then look over their archives, or search "(headphone name) response graph" on Google. The smoothest response curve among all you're considering is usually the safest bet, and most neutral also.
 
Feb 9, 2016 at 10:55 AM Post #6 of 20
I think measurements like (Tyll Herstens amazing collection of measurements) and reviews can all be very useful when combined with a lot of listening.  You can learn to understand things in the measurements and reviews that you are sensitive to.  You can learn to understand which reviewers are speaking a language that agrees with your perspective.  You can learn to see particular things in the measurements that you hear in the headphones (don't just look at FR, I particularly like square wave response).  All this provides some significant guidance.  If your hearing isn't as keen as you think, it might even provide significant bias too, but in that case who cares, so long as it gets you to where you are happy.  In the end though, you have to listen. This is not just saying "sound is subjective".   Measurements don't test everything though and nothing is perfect reference anyway (or even close at $100), so you have make choices and that's subjective.
 
Feb 10, 2016 at 1:17 AM Post #7 of 20
It's ok for headphones have some curves matching close to the equal loudness contour. I don't think any music was mastered using 100% neutral headphones or speakers.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
 
Feb 10, 2016 at 9:24 AM Post #8 of 20
  It's ok for headphones have some curves matching close to the equal loudness contour. I don't think any music was mastered using 100% neutral headphones or speakers.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

 
A headphone matching equal loudness contour curves would be really bassy (and bright)
 
Feb 10, 2016 at 2:40 PM Post #9 of 20
I was just demonstrating that our own hearing isn't flat so headphone's shouldn't be flat as well.
 
Feb 10, 2016 at 6:04 PM Post #10 of 20
  I was just demonstrating that our own hearing isn't flat so headphone's shouldn't be flat as well.

 
Our hearing is what it is.  If you record niagra falls with all its many frequencies, it sounds like what it sounds like.  If you record it flat, and play it back flat, it will sound like it sounds when you're actually  there.  Are you saying we should correct how things really sound to match how they should sound?  We should make Niagra falls sound more real than real? 
 
The only extent to which this isn't true and to which there is some valid science here, is that the equal loudness curves change with volume.  I thought the usual idea behind this is to make things sound louder, so you can play back at low volume and have the frequency curve sound closer to how it would at high volume.  In the end though I think that kind of trickery falls under the category of what sound signature you like.  Accurate reproduction would be to play it back at the same volume, with a flat all flat recording and playback equipment.
 
Feb 10, 2016 at 7:51 PM Post #11 of 20
   
Our hearing is what it is.  If you record niagra falls with all its many frequencies, it sounds like what it sounds like.  If you record it flat, and play it back flat, it will sound like it sounds when you're actually  there.  Are you saying we should correct how things really sound to match how they should sound?  We should make Niagra falls sound more real than real? 

 
That's quite right on an ideal world were we can define what flat means and that remain applicable to every person.
 
In real world, things are much more tricky.
 
The shape of your body, tune/equalize the sound coming from a live venue, Niagra falls and speakers.
When you wear headphones, the shape of your body doesn't interact and thus you should consider the effect of this fact.
Since we all have different shape/body, this effect varies from people to people.
 
Then there's the measurements. Different measuring rigs, different results. Different compensation, different results... 
Flat on Innerfidelity means not flat on Goldenears and so on.
 
So, yeah... Things are just a tad more complex with headphones than with speakers/amplifiers and DACs where the word flat has a defined meaning.
 
Feb 11, 2016 at 12:10 AM Post #12 of 20
OK, but HTF and equal loudness aren't really the same thing.  There may be some relationship between them.  Anyway, I guess over-ear headphones are closer to forward positioned speakers than they are to iems, but that statement depends on your baseline for measuring them anyway... (next post).
 
Feb 11, 2016 at 12:17 AM Post #13 of 20
Of course defining the frequency response of headphones can be the hard part.  If I recall correctly, Tyll herstens (innerfidelity) measures in the ear canal, and then corrects that spectrum to produce a mains speaker equivalent spectrum.  So in theory flat on a speaker and flat on that particular headphone, should give you the same (but not flat) spectrum inside your ear.  If this is really done correctly and if all heads are close enough to the same, then this really does represent the flat in flat out model I was referring to.  Whatever your nerves do to that is then the same as what they would have done at Niagra falls.  This is at least the goal, imperfectly attained of course.  
 
The moral here is it's very important that the "measurements" are made well by somebody who understands this stuff.  In a sense we're agreeing that one should appropriately factor these things, but my point is while it is hard to do measurements/corrections perfectly at this level, it is actually possible, at least to within the variations in human ears, to define what flat reproduction means for a particular headphone and to measure and plot deviations from that, and existing measurements already strive for that. 
 
I just don't see how your equal loudness statement stands as any useful generic advice on what differences one should want from flat in those measurements.  Inerfidelity attempts very hard, as hard as probably anyone knows how give or take some debate, to make flat mean exactly what it should mean and exactly what should be needed for accurate (not necessarily your favorite) reproduction.  Sure they aren't perfect and there are person to person variations  left over, but none of that equates to saying "we should have some equal loudness contour" in the resulting spectrum. Equal loudness is maybe what you want if you want to play at low volume, the important thing not being the shape, but the difference in shape at different volumes.
 
Feb 11, 2016 at 1:00 AM Post #14 of 20
  Of course my statement depends on how you define the FR of headphones.  Really that can be the hard part.  If I recall correctly, Tyll herstens measures in the ear canal, and then corrects that spectrum to produce a mains speaker equivalent spectrum.  So in theory flat on a speaker and flat on that particular headphone, should give you the same (but not flat) spectrum inside your ear.  If this is really done correctly and if all heads are close enough to the same, then this really does represent the flat in flat out model I was referring to.  Whatever your nerves do to that is then the same as what they would have done at Niagra falls.  This is at least the goal, imperfectly attained of course.  The moral here is it's very important that the measurements are made well by somebody who understands this stuff.

 
I really appreciate Tyll's job and I check his page at least once a day for one reason or another, but strictly speaking I'm not a big fan of the compensation he uses.
For instance HD650 is more bassy to my ears than Tyll's measurments suggest. Then (at least mine) HD800 is brighter.
 
Beyond this, there's the fact that we are not playing perfect recordings since there's no such a thing.
So the perfect Niagra falls sound goes into one or more mics, then into electronic devices, then the mastering engineer comes into play with all his subjective preferences (hopefully he doesn't apply tons of compression to make the recording louder) and get the job done. So we get something that strictly speaking can be labelled as an 'imperfect' recording of the Niagra Falls.
 
But even beyond that fact, we can also asure that two people standing in front of the Niagra Falls, one closer than the other, will hear the original/perfect Niagra sound in a different way, same for two people at different location in a concert hall, and both are listening to the real thing. Both experiences are just as real, and you may like one more than the other, so there's personal preference still there in the end.
 
Feb 11, 2016 at 1:07 AM Post #15 of 20
I agree with all that (and I modified my post while you were typing to make this point..) but the point you're now coming to is that there IS a notion of what we mean by flat.  We can define it.  We just have trouble doing it perfectly.  There are 1) errors in our equipment/ability to correct for it and 2) personal variation.  
 
There is no general contour that you should tell someone to aim for to correct for 2 and any general correction for 1 is certainly not something as simple as equal contoru curves because the people doing this do know about that stuff.  I think if there was a simple well known shape like equal loudness  that headphones FR should have, then that would be factored into the definition already and we'd again be saying they should be flat.   Obviously I'm not saying any measurement is perfect or there isn't room for argument.  I just don't think "we should look for this shape because people hear this way" works.  The argument would have to be, "Innerfidelity over-corrects in this band because they mis-estimated this effect... etc etc.".
 

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