[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CamelBackCinema I am totally clueless about this.

Quite simple.

1) The gift mention is not a real taxation problem. There is always a limit (often a $50.) and above this number the item is treated as an odinary sale for the residual exceeding part.

2) The real value of the item is probably the price the buyer realy paid for it. How on earth does the taxpeople will determine this figure? A higher challenge for the taxman: trying to find the true value in headphones trading...

3) Is it illegal betwen two individuals to sell an item below his fair market price? No. But the taxman is going after that fair market number. Does the taxman/official has the «time/human ressources/expertise» to meet the challenge of such a task?

Amicalement

 

[ken36]

Who can fix a value on a used item? I would suggest it would be a subjective thing.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken36 Who can fix a value on a used item? I would suggest it would be a subjective thing.

You're right. You can add, on the objective side, that items value can be greatly affected, when crossing borders, by the loss of warranty. It's specially true when they are new or almost new.

Amicalement

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY Isn't it a felony to make false declarations on customs forms? In any case, regardless of whether it's illegal, it's silly to misrepresent the value of items. If the buyer can't pay local taxes/VAT/etc. on the item's purchase price, the buyer can't afford it and shouldn't have bought it. Headphones and amplifiers are luxury items, not necessities. If you have a beef with your nation's tax policies, become politically active and make some noise, don't expect people in other nations to lie in order to make acquiring luxury items a little easier for you.

A felony?

First of all, selling or giving something to a acquaintance abroad ( except weaponry and dual use stuff, but that generally doesn't apply to audio gear) is perfectly legal in the whole western world.The risks involved in misrepresenting the value are on the side of the buyer, namely lacking insureability and the risk of getting charged despite of the "gift" declaration.
That's all.It isn't considered to be a crime, it's a misdemeanor like driving a bit too fast.
In case you don't get away with the "gift" story everybody remains relaxed.
My customs officer tells me something in the lines of:"Sorry, man, but your trick didn't work.Please bring a kind of receipt, bank or credit card, and I'll charge you accordingly."In the worst case the buyer has to pay the duties, that's it, and there are tricks how to diminish the financial consequences by installing a second layer of charade (plan B).

Second, you obviously don't know much about the european way of live.
To keep it short : The whole population (except the few miserables and the totally dumb) does utilize any trick available to reduce the burden of taxes and duties.It's a necessity of life here.Without that there's absolutely no chance to prosper, period, and everybody knows it and acts accordingly.

OTOH I can easily understand your concerns about an international deal.Does the buyer really understand the terms and risks of such a deal? I certainly do, but an unexperienced buyer might embarrassingly complain when in worst case the ***** hits the fan.

 

[Lil_JV]

LOL! I had a full set of rims/tires sent as a gift. LMAO! No fees for me! Yeah, I can understand that guy who send like 30 things a month. That's a little rediculous.

Have you ever had to pay the fees before, though? They make no sense. They are just random fees to get more money. I can see paying GST, but an entry prep fee. What is that? On my last shippment, from a business, that fee was as much as GST!

JV.

 

[AlanY]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma A felony? ... The risks involved in misrepresenting the value are on the side of the buyer, namely lacking insureability and the risk of getting charged despite of the "gift" declaration. That's all. It isn't considered to be a crime, it's a misdemeanor like driving a bit too fast.

Uh, no. It's a felony:
http://uscode.house.gov/download/pls/18C27.txt

Quote:

Second, you obviously don't know much about the european way of live. To keep it short : The whole population (except the few miserables and the totally dumb) does utilize any trick available to reduce the burden of taxes and duties.It's a necessity of life here.Without that there's absolutely no chance to prosper, period, and everybody knows it and acts accordingly.

I understand your argument, but I think it's passive-aggressive nonsense. These are luxury items, not necessities, as I said before. You're just trying to rationalize breaking the law. Many of the same people trying to cheat paying legitimate import taxes probably also rant about all the welfare bums sponging off the system. It's just hypocritical. You know the costs your society attaches to acquiring these luxury goods. If you can't afford those costs, you can't afford the item. I have an acquaintance, a very well paid corporate lawyer, who brags about how he makes false declarations every time he comes back from shopping across the border. He can afford it, he knows the costs, he just gets a kick out of trying to cheat the system. But he's the first person to complain when he hears about someone else (usually someone earning far less than he) cheating the system. I have a lot more respect for people who strive to live above board and with enough integrity not to make false statements for petty savings.

 

[CamelBackCinema]

Great debate guys. Yeah, well the transaction has already been made and he already paid a considerable amount for shipping so I will bend the rules a bit. Thanks for the healthly discussion.

 

[felixkrull6]

First off, I've bought stuff from companies directly from Japan that have put gift on the package and nothing happened with taxes.

Second, if we can't talk about downloading songs that we haven't payed for in this forum because it is illegal how has this thread not been closed because not declaring the proper value on any "gift" is obviously illegal, otherwise they wouldn't make you declare anything. I personally like this topic, but I was just curious.

Having said that, I'm all for the more grey interpretation of things.

 

[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanY I have a lot more respect for people who strive to live above board and with enough integrity not to make false statements for petty savings.

Your uberhonest (hypothetical) european guy might have really serious problems to keep his family above board since his behaviour is a clear sign of intelligence far below average.
Personally I never met such an idiot in my lifetime (45 years), but they might exist.Even we have some inbreeding hillbillies.

 

[cosmopragma]

double post.

 

[cosmopragma]

triple.

 

[Genetic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma Even we have some inbreeding hillbillies.

But not many...LOL.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...105519,00.html

Do I miss TIO....

Amicalement

 

[nikongod]

there is always the option of specifying "used gear" for everyting that is.

 

[Snufkin]

I've seen, in person, someone arrested on the spot for mis-valuing goods.
It was marked as a gift, the customers officer asked if he could open the box. Inside the box was a receipt with the value paid on the goods.
The customs officer looked at the guy and had him arrested right then and there.
The stupid thing was the goods were only worth around $600, he wouldn't have had to pay much in the way of tax/duties, instead he's looking at a big fine or jail time.
I don't know if it works differently in Europe, I'm in Australia.

True story.

Do you really think customs are dumb enough to not know how many people falsely mis-value goods? It's not some kind of magical secret that nobody has noticed, people do it, and are fined for it, all the time.

 

[K2Grey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma Your uberhonest (hypothetical) european guy might have really serious problems to keep his family above board since his behaviour is a clear sign of intelligence far below average. Personally I never met such an idiot in my lifetime (45 years), but they might exist.Even we have some inbreeding hillbillies.

I strongly disagree that honesty is a sign of stupidity, but I suppose there are always people who believe this in the world. Personally, I commit all manner of wrongful actions in my life, with occasional partial attempts at repentance, but I have great respect for those who strive to be honest and righteous even when it means that they are unable to obtain some good or benefit.