ipod revisited... better, but still room for improvement

[Wodgy]

Stereophile's review has measurements:
http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/934/

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jade so how does the ipod sound? i always hear people talking about looks and features but noone ever mentions sound. is there any published signal to noise ratio or anything? even though i dont go by specs it still serves as a referencepoint.

personally I think the iPod ranks among the best-sounding mp3 players and i use it as a reference to test others, along with the creative nomad jukebox 3. with properly encoded files it can produce music very close to the original CD (without use of EQ). some people say it lacks bass but i don't believe so, i think those folks are the type that love mega-bass. iPod's EQ is one of its weak points since it only offers presets, but i don't usually EQ settings anyway. iPod is still a good choice if sound quality is a top concern, but other players like Karma have surprisingly good SQ as well.

 

[halcyon]

I think the "lack of bass" on iPod is pretty much a universal verdict from all professional reviewers (Stereophile, Hifi/FIN and German audio magazines). It just lacks bass compared to more linear devices like Rio Karma and iRiver iHP-120. This regardless of the headphones used.

It's a surprise Apple hasn't fixed this failing yet.

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon I think the "lack of bass" on iPod is pretty much a universal verdict from all professional reviewers (Stereophile, Hifi/FIN and German audio magazines). It just lacks bass compared to more linear devices like Rio Karma and iRiver iHP-120. This regardless of the headphones used. It's a surprise Apple hasn't fixed this failing yet.

could it be an issue only affecting gen 3 ipods? i only have a gen 2.

 

[pic9809]

i own both a 3G 30gb and a blue mini, and have to give the nod to the mini. my 30gb now just sits collecting dust in my living room, and powering my home HiFi for some obscure songs i don't have in my CD changer

you just cannot be the added portability the mini affords you, and thx to itunes' smart playlists your mini can automatically pull the music you want and you never have to update manually

 

[White Knight]

Just visited your website Austin and I have to agree on one poster that says iPod has the most pathetic sound on all DAPs. He is right, iPod low frequency sound is narrow and thin and treble is too high. In general it lacks bass. And for iPod zealots that says iPod sound is neutral, its far from being neutral. Bright sound is far from being a neutral sound. I had my mini since it came out and I rarely use it.

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Knight Just visited your website Austin and I have to agree on one poster that says iPod has the most pathetic sound on all DAPs. He is right, iPod low frequency sound is narrow and thin and treble is too high. In general it lacks bass. And for iPod zealots that says iPod sound is neutral, its far from being neutral. Bright sound is far from being a neutral sound. I had my mini since it came out and I rarely use it.

of course eveyone's got a right to thier own opinion and SQ is a subjective thing...

i disagree though, its SQ is one reasons i keep the thing. have you tested other DAPs head-to-head vs the iPod with same files/headphones & flat-EQ?

which others do you find more suitable?

 

[chadbang]

I would say the mini is a good choice for casual listeners and the jogging set. If you're a music fanatic, get the full sized iPod.



To me THE AMOUNT OF STORAGE is the iPod's reason d'tre.

I used to drag 20 cds around with my Sony D-777 and then decide that I wasn't in the mood for any of them. That was always my problem. Now, I couldn't live without the option of dragging around 200 albums with me on my iPod. Music is an extension of my mood and, as mecurical as I am, I can finally pick exactly what I want to listen to on the go.

Another great reason for toting your album collection with you:
Last week a bunch of us were sitting around and having the usual Gen-x pop culture conversation. We hit on music and the Velvet Underground came up. We were talking about the strangeness of Nico and I said, "Have you ever heard John Cale sing 'All Tomorrow's Parties'? It's on the live Velvet Underground reunion cd". Nobody had.
I started to pontificate about how Cale's voice was a perfect replacement for Nico's and then I went: "Holy @*! Wait, I've got it right here!"
I forgot I had my ipod with me. I broke it out and we checked out the tune right there. THAT was a great reason for having an iPod!


I cast my vote for a full size ipod, always.

 

[James]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon I think the "lack of bass" on iPod is pretty much a universal verdict from all professional reviewers (Stereophile, Hifi/FIN and German audio magazines).

I do not know about the latter rags, but Stereophile made no mention of any "lack of bass," or anything untoward about the bass for that matter. In fact, the line-out measures very flat. As far as I know, no one has measured the iPod's headphone-out after Apple corrected its roll-off with low-impedance headphones (firmware 2.1).

The brightness of the iPod, OTOH, is a curiosity to me. It is clearly not as extended on top as a real audiophile source, it doesn't emphasize voices like some lower-grade players, there is no extra sibilance, etc. It does not sound harsh, at least to me. And yet the iPod does sound more "peppy" than other players. Strange.

In any event, other than a certain overall dryness in its sound quality and some fullness in the upper bass/lower midrange, the iPod was the first HD MP3 player to adequately stand in for my home sources. The others had various faults -- most notably, lack of neutrality and dynamics -- but the iPod's compromises were the least distracting for me.

Back to the topic: I really REALLY REALLY want scrolling text on the iPod for menu items. I have too many multiple-composer classical discs to have to remember that this disc's Tchaikovsky piano concerto lies after the Rachmaninoff prelude

. Nevertheless, the more I think about getting rid of the iPod, the more I realize that there's nothing else on the market with the same winning combination of sound quality, capacity, general usefulness (e.g., as a FAT32 drive and a portable transfer point for digital images), and service quality. Note that I ruled out the iRiver IHP-120 and Creative Jukeboxes on the first account (purely subjective opinion, of course) and the Rio Karma on capacity (that 40GB version cannot come soon enough!). Damn it, I hate being part of the flock ....

P.S. A pet peeve: why is the word "linear" so often used for "flat?" Obviously, a horizontal line is a degenerate linear curve (one with zero slope), but how "linear" is therefore equivalent to "zero slope" is beyond me.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the iPod's handling of high-bitrate MP3s needs to be addressed. Hopefully, this will be fixed in a future firmware update.

 

[Futhermucker]

I just returned my ihp-120 for a 20gig 3G Ipod, mostly on the basis of sound (but there were plenty of other reasons). I wanted to like ihp because of the optical out, treble and bass controls, and extended battery life BUT as someone mentioned in another post it fatigued their ears, it felt the same to mine.

For some reason I found the ihp too much... too much bass, to much treble, too much colour, too many bugs. I got the Ipod yesterday, and to me it sounds better.... But that's just me.

I would get try the Karma, if not for the hd failure issues. I just don't want the hassle.

 

[halcyon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by James I do not know about the latter rags, but Stereophile made no mention of any "lack of bass," or anything untoward about the bass for that matter.

Maybe I read a different Stereophile?

Quote:

"MP3 robbed Steve Swallow's pulsing bass lines of dynamics and punch on the Carla Bley album, while blunting the shimmer of the brass overtones. AAC fared slightly better, offering better bass response (although it was still pretty lightweight compared to the original CD) and slightly more extended HF (again, shelved down in comparison to the CD).

Surprisingly, upping the bit rate to 160kbps did not result in major improvements for either format. Bass impact remained MIA in MP3, and the upper frequencies sounded strident, with that unmistakable "too much compression" punchiness. AAC again sounded marginally better, although Bley's big band still seemed flattened and lacking in dynamic variation.

...

Channel separation was fundamentally good in both directions (fig.2), but slightly if inconsequentially compromised at low frequencies by the battery power supply's rising impedance in this region". From Stereophile review.

Measurements show decreased channel separation at low frequencies, which is often the cause of perceptible loss of bass frequencies. You can experience this same with neutral crossfeed filters, which loose bass, unless you compensate for this psychoacoustical loss by increasing bass output.

The same kind of comments from professional reviewers have been voice in quality Hifi-publications (i.e. not "rags"), like Hifi (FIN) and Audio (GER) which also measure all the equipment tested and actually also listen to them.

Then again, maybe the fact that these findings are in line with my own experiences makes me biased

regards,
halcyon

 

[Big D]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Futhermucker I just returned my ihp-120 for a 20gig 3G Ipod, mostly on the basis of sound (but there were plenty of other reasons). I wanted to like ihp because of the optical out, treble and bass controls, and extended battery life BUT as someone mentioned in another post it fatigued their ears, it felt the same to mine. For some reason I found the ihp too much... too much bass, to much treble, too much colour, too many bugs. I got the Ipod yesterday, and to me it sounds better.... But that's just me. I would get try the Karma, if not for the hd failure issues. I just don't want the hassle.

Sorry this is off topic....

What "bugs" did you find with the player?? The iHP's firmware is the most stable of all the major players. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to advise someone to use the reset button, and I've never used it myself, whereas the Karma and iPod often have to be reset.

If you could let me know as I am trying to write some FAQs for the Misticriver website and I'd appreciate knowing about all the bugs I can find.

 

[chadbang]

Quote:

Originally Posted by halcyon Maybe I read a different Stereophile? Quote: "MP3 robbed Steve Swallow's pulsing bass lines of dynamics and punch on the Carla Bley album, while blunting the shimmer of the brass overtones. AAC fared slightly better, offering better bass response (although it was still pretty lightweight compared to the original CD) and slightly more extended HF (again, shelved down in comparison to the CD). Surprisingly, upping the bit rate to 160kbps did not result in major improvements for either format. Bass impact remained MIA in MP3, and the upper frequencies sounded strident, with that unmistakable "too much compression" punchiness. AAC again sounded marginally better, although Bley's big band still seemed flattened and lacking in dynamic variation. ... Channel separation was fundamentally good in both directions (fig.2), but slightly if inconsequentially compromised at low frequencies by the battery power supply's rising impedance in this region". From Stereophile review. Measurements show decreased channel separation at low frequencies, which is often the cause of perceptible loss of bass frequencies. You can experience this same with neutral crossfeed filters, which loose bass, unless you compensate for this psychoacoustical loss by increasing bass output. The same kind of comments from professional reviewers have been voice in quality Hifi-publications (i.e. not "rags"), like Hifi (FIN) and Audio (GER) which also measure all the equipment tested and actually also listen to them. Then again, maybe the fact that these findings are in line with my own experiences makes me biased regards, halcyon

I actually think this was Stereophile's review of the MP3 sound and not the iPod itself.

I don't think the iPod has any shortage of bass or is thin in sound. Just today I was experiementing using my Sony D-777 portable cd player and my iPod as the source for my stereo system. I had to turn up the bass on my preamp using the D-777 to match the bass output of the iPod. And the D-777 is supposedly one of the warmest vintage sources around.

 

[Futhermucker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big D Sorry this is off topic.... What "bugs" did you find with the player?? The iHP's firmware is the most stable of all the major players. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have had to advise someone to use the reset button, and I've never used it myself, whereas the Karma and iPod often have to be reset. If you could let me know as I am trying to write some FAQs for the Misticriver website and I'd appreciate knowing about all the bugs I can find.

1. HD spinup issue

2. Crackling sounds with remote at low volumes. This has been acknowleged by many people other than myself, and pissed me off the most!

3. Poor implementation of database functionality. OK this was not officially a bug, just poor programming.

4. New Mood Illogic database software. This did not work on my xp box, and I posted in the iriver forum to no avail. Regardless, I have no idea why it has to scan all my MP3'z at all (a function which did work BTW)? What I wanted was it to recognize my iriver unit and scan that! Also, why did it have to run as a service at 23,000 K of memory, using up more memory than anything else other than explorer.exe. This poor software progamming swayed me in the direction to return the unit.

5. Recording issues have been reported (but I didn't test them out). I've read about clipping, and hard drive sounds. Also the poor implementation of the recording file size limit.

I am a computer programmer, and like hacking around with things. However, I got tired of the poorly implemented features and the bugs. I decided to try apple and give them the benefit of the doubt. I do have 30 days to return the unit, and if I am unhappy I will do so, and try something else.

This has all been said before.... So far the Ipod implementation is flawless. No crackling or poor software. But most of all I am happier with the sound. I am no audiophile, but I found the ihp to sound too enhanced. Yes, the bass was very bassy... Yes, I could tweak the sound... but I've come to realize that I am buying a package, and not just a sound. If I wanted just the sound I probably would go for the Karma (sounds like most people dig it), but again I don't want the hassle of the hd dying.

And that was completely off topic, and was my 1st rant....