[Damage]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethk OK, I admit that I find the sleeker players more attractive. In the end audio quality will win out, but I'm still holding out for something with the features / quality of a Karma and the looks of an iPod or Sony. Here's what I would like: 1. Good sound quality 2. Line out 3. Should act like a HD, usable without installing s/w on other PCs (I have 4 counting notebook + work pc, and visit friends and family.) 4. NO EVILNESS. (yes it's a word.) This includes converting my files into other formats, install useless crap on my PC (e.g. iTunes + Quicktime) No "Copy Protection" - come on, I OWN THE MUSIC. LEAVE ME ALONE. 5. Preferably 40GB, < $400 (yeah, I know seems unlikely) 6. Play FLAC and every kind of MP3 and OGG (I guess some other lossless codec would be fine, but I hate to convert / rip everything AGAIN!) 7. Should look nice and be reasonably compact 8. Digital out would be nice (for use with headphone AMP+DACs) 8 is easy to live without, 5-7 I could live without in a pinch, 1-4 = MUST HAVE

If 1-4 is a must, then Karma would be my recommendation. Any and all Creative HD DAPs are out since you need 3rd party software to use it as a HD. Not sure about Samsung's Napster Branded DAPs, but I think those lack a proper line out.

iPod would fall under as well, but the player initially needs to be reconfigured as a HD with iTunes (I don't believe that there is an option you can toggle within the Pod itself). iPod's line-out however, comes with a dock (or third party dock, etc.) and not on the unit. Karma is the only unit with a dock that has an Ethernet Connection, acting as a "line-out" of sorts for your network devices.

Incidentally, once HD mode is enabled, you can use third party programs such as ephPod to transfer music. However, again, you'd need to use iTunes at least once to enable HD mode, IIRC.

(SQ, I couldn't tell you about the Karma. iPod and Creative DAPs have very nice SQ but for one reason or another, I decided on not keeping those. If SQ is of primary concern, you really can't go wrong on the Pod or the Zens)

Another recommendation at least from features you've outlined would be iRiver line of HD, the 1st gen stuff did have OGG support (limited) but not FLAC.

 

[sethk]

Hm... I did not know you could enable a HD mode on iPods which then allowed it to act like a HD. I could live with installing iTunes on one PC, but requiring it everywhere (plus the evil anti-file copy) was the major downside to the iPod that made me not want it. The $20 adapter for line out is also something I could live with.
The lack of FLAC support I could live with, I'm sure there's some sort of batch convert app that can convert my FLACs to lossless (aac?) apple format.
I will wait until after CES but the iPod is suddenly looking appealing again.

 

[Rumz]

Blah blah blah. iPod bashing threads are dime a dozen, I swear

Anyways, the author of the thread is interested in the Vaio Pocket. I'm a bit picky about sound yet wouldn't call myself an audiophile... that disclaimer aside, I'm really enjoying my Sony Vaio Pocket (40GB version).

Design/Size-- it's maybe a bit thinner than my old iRiver H100, though quite a bit heavier in comparison-- it's solidly built, feels really good in my hand. It's a tad longer than the iRiver and is a bit thick at the one end, but that makes it easier to grip.

Sound-- unlike my Sony Hi-MD unit (the NH1), it actually sounds very good with a flat EQ. When I want a little oomph in the bass, there are some EQ presets to choose from which are much better than any of the iPod presets ever were for me. There doesn't appear to be a way to manually set the equalizer, but perhaps in a future firmware update? I won't hold my breath but I'm not dissatisfied with what I have now, either. I use the Sony D66 eggos as well as some Shure E3c's... nothing really high end, but good enough to reveal some characteristics of a portable's amp. No complaints about sound quality at all thus far.

Side note, I primarily use Atrac3+ @ 256kbps for most my music, with a few mp3s here and there. I don't wish to delve into yet other formats even if they are open. At 256k I have a hard time telling the difference between various codecs. Since I use only atrac and mp3, there's no "conversion" necessary for my files. Sure there's some Sony DRM involved, but I really could care less. I used an iPod and an iRiver and never felt a need to copy files from my portable to another computer. I only used them to transfer other types of files, which the Vaio can do but with one drawback-- needing the dock to connect to the computer. I wish Sony would make a USB cable for the Vaio so I could connect it to my computer at work for taking graphics files home. That's the only real negative I have with this player, as I'd prefer to leave the dock at home when I'm just commuting back and forth to work and school.

Latest firmware update: I wasn't interested in this player until the latest firmware update, which among other things adds MP3 support and gapless playback of Atrac files. Importing mp3s and transferring them over was no big deal, it was as fast as transferring pre-encoded atrac3 files. I haven't tried to use the Vaio music transfer utility, I've simply used Sonic Stage 2.3.

People whine and complain about Sonic Stage all day long, but in the end I don't mind it. Having used Hi-MD and groups before I was somewhat prepared for it. I actually like that there's an option to sync with your library or to just manually transfer tracks/albums to the player. With iTunes it wasn't as simple to delete tracks off my iPod and what not, unless I just synced via playlists which caused some problems for me. So far I'm liking it and haven't had any problems with Sonic Stage. Although some may disliked that you can't drop music tracks onto this unit from any computer like other players that are just drag and drop, I actually like having some software to help organize my music and manage it (this is after having used the iRiver H100 and having found that, at least for me, managing my music became cumbersome. That and other annoyances with the H100 have turned me off of that unit and perhaps iRiver in general for the time being).

Interface-- coming from the iPod it was a step down in simplicity, but it didn't take long to adjust to. Mainly the change is using the touch pad-- it just takes some getting used to. After you load a lot of music onto it it can take a couple seconds for the menu to come back up when you call for it, but I can't compare this to other players because I've never used anything more than 10 gigs, and even that I never filled half-way.

Playlisting is something I was dreading being without, but in some cases groups serve that function for me, and there is also a playlisting feature on the unit. I wish you could set up playlists in Sonic Stage or another utility, but for now I'm glad it at least has some sort of playlist function. Basically you have playlists numbered 1 through 5, and adding a song to a list is easy, it's just changing which list you're adding songs to that takes a bit more effort-- it's easy enough, just a step or 2 more than I'd like.

Photos: Some say the screen is better than that of the iPod Photo-- I've not compared the 2. Color screen is excellent, though. As far as interfacing with a digital camera, I've not yet tried it. Another acquaintance of mine says it works quite well-- I'll have to give it a try myself. In any case, you have to use the dock to transfer photos because of the proprietary connector on the Pocket. To me, if I want this player to transfer photos on a long trip, it's really not a big deal to carry the dock along with me-- it's not that big. It has a mini USB port as well as a regular usb port, so you should be able to use the standard USB cable included with most digital cameras. In any case, I can report back later when I've given this feature a try.

I like that this player was made by Sony's Vaio division-- a simple firmware update added gapless and mp3 support in addition to faster performance, new features and interface enhancements. I guess this means to me that the product has potential for improvement if it's firmware updatable, unlike the other Sony units I've used.

I'd recommend this unit to the author of this thread. I can't compare it with the iRiver he mentioned, since I've not used it nor would I care to. I have to say it was a bit of a gamble buying this unit with there not being much in the way of reviews out there, but I also think this prevents me from biased in any way. I can say that a couple weeks into it, I'm satisfied with my purchase.

I apologize if this review is a bit rough-- I don't normally write reviews nor feel particularly qualified to write them, but seeing as the author of this thread wanted some feedback on the unit, I thought I'd at least share my perspective and experience. As always-- your mileage may vary

 

[Layerfire]

I recomend the Iriver h320:

I have just got it and it is amazing, powerful and easy to use.

I am not gona bash the ipod i am just gona say the iriver can Play .ogg, asf, wma and now .avi which is actually very good quality.

The one thing i look forward to is test running the iriver with my shure e2c's when they arrive, I currently use beyyer 231's and the H320 has helped to bring out some qualities my sharp 410 didn't.
However my beyyers are ugly as **** so I want something smaller hence shure.

Back on to ease of use I actually hate the certain rivals interface and find the Iriver nice and simple and it allows for a much better file structuring system then the duhhhhhh lets stick it in other that some mp3 players do.

 

[Xell]

Rumz - Thank you VERY much. I've been dying for a review from someone who actually bought and uses the VAIO. Great review!

I plan to go to a store and try the VAIO against the iRiver H320. It's a shame the VAIO doesn't have audio in, but i can live without it.

I have one more question. Sorry if i'm abit of a newbie asking this.

I understand MP3 quality will be less than a lossless format. Roughly 10 Gig of my music is MP3 between 128-256. The other 5 is AAC.

If i were to use a VAIO, or any other mp3 player bar the iPod, i would need to change the format. Would you suggest the players preferred format (ATRAC) or just make it MP3. And if i was using the VAIO, should i convert even my MP3's to ATRAC? (seems pointless)

In summary, Will i notice a big difference changing AAC to MP3/ATRAC?

 

[Rumz]

You're welcome.

With regards to the music you have in AAC format, I guess it depends on the bitrate. With Atrac there aren't as many options-- you have 132kbps Atrac3 and then 256kbps Atrac3plus-- nothing in between. If you're fine using 256k (which is what I use)-- then don't bother making mp3s of the music you have in AAC. If you can rip from CD to Atrac3+ @ 256k, you may / should get slightly better battery life than you would from mp3s, though I haven't tested this. In any case, once you get up to bitrates of 224-256k, you won't notice much if any difference between codecs, I'd guess.

As for your mp3s-- I wouldn't convert them to Atrac3. A) You lose even more quality by re-compressing an already lossy track, and B) That's just more time you don't need to spend converting them if the Pocket can play the mp3s without converting them.

One thing I have to admit is that I haven't yet tested Lame VBR (aps or ape) mp3 playback on the Pocket. The files I've tried thus far are CBR-- I'll give the VBR tracks a whirl this evening and see what happens.

As far as line-in goes... I never liked the way my old iRiver handled recording, it was clunky compared to the MD units I'd used for recording. I still prefer Hi-MD if I'm going to be recording on the go. Is the recording ability / performance of the H320 much improved over the previous generation of iRiver HDD units?

 

[sethk]

Rumz, do you know if the Vaio "converts" MP3s on the unit when you try and listen to them? I saw that in an article, but it doesn't make much sense. Seems like the dock / cable thing should be something that's doable, if not by Sony then hopefully some 3rd party will step in.
I own and have owned several very expensive Sony devices and one thing that always pissed me off about them is that Sony is one of the worst companies when it comes to product lifecycle maintenance / support / enhancements. They come out with minor evolutions of every device they sell every year and so it is not in their interest to upgrade devices too much. The Sony P900 phone has a memory stick duo slot that would only accept 128MB sticks which sounds like a hw limitation, but a hacked firmware (stolen from the P910) showed that the P900 could support larger sticks, yet Sony refuses to update the device - my answer when I asked - "Buy a P910." Thanks Sony. I've had similar experiences with my (at the time) $350 DVD burner, my Sony $800 NR-70V Vaio PDA and my previous Sony Vaio Laptop.
I'm glad to hear you got a f/w update, hopefully this is a sign that Sony is changing their ways. I love their products but have a deep mistrust of the company.

 

[Xell]

Hehe, my girlfriend of all people has advised against me getting the VAIO.
GShock and a tad bigger than a credit card... Yep, i'm talking about the NW-HD3. I've pretty much decided on it... Just gone sit on my decision for a week and then i will look around here before going to the store and purchasing

On that note, anyone know a good online UK/European store? Amazon seem to be the best, and i get VAT off - roughly £187.

 

[Rumz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sethk Rumz, do you know if the Vaio "converts" MP3s on the unit when you try and listen to them? I saw that in an article, but it doesn't make much sense. Seems like the dock / cable thing should be something that's doable, if not by Sony then hopefully some 3rd party will step in. I own and have owned several very expensive Sony devices and one thing that always pissed me off about them is that Sony is one of the worst companies when it comes to product lifecycle maintenance / support / enhancements. They come out with minor evolutions of every device they sell every year and so it is not in their interest to upgrade devices too much. The Sony P900 phone has a memory stick duo slot that would only accept 128MB sticks which sounds like a hw limitation, but a hacked firmware (stolen from the P910) showed that the P900 could support larger sticks, yet Sony refuses to update the device - my answer when I asked - "Buy a P910." Thanks Sony. I've had similar experiences with my (at the time) $350 DVD burner, my Sony $800 NR-70V Vaio PDA and my previous Sony Vaio Laptop. I'm glad to hear you got a f/w update, hopefully this is a sign that Sony is changing their ways. I love their products but have a deep mistrust of the company.

I'm actually wondering that about mp3s myself. I very much doubt that the Vaio takes the mp3 file and converts it on the fly for playback on the unit-- that would be a pretty big drain on the battery I would think. However, when I transferred mp3s over to the Vaio, I didn't notice any difference in how fast the tracks transferred over as opposed to how quickly atrac3plus files transferred. My understanding of what the HD3 does is that it wraps the mp3 in an OpenMG container (presumably to both copy-protect the mp3 and to facilitate playback on Sony's hardware). I had assumed that the same would be true with the Pocket Vaio, but I haven't really looked into it-- I'll check this as well when I have a chance this evening.

As far as cables go-- I was kinda hoping the connector would be the same as that used for Hi-MD units like the NH1-- cause then I'd have one already. But alas, it's a different connector (Hi-MD uses USB 1.1 anyways, yuck). I bet if there were demand someone might produce such a cable, but so far there doesn't seem to be much demand...

But yes-- it's awesome to see Sony release a firmware update. Let's just hope that it does, as you suggest, mean Sony is changing their ways (another way to see it would be that Sony is simply trying to give a current product a boost because they're falling so behind in the HDD DAP game...) Either way, Since early 2004 I've seen a number of updates to Sonic Stage 2 (from 2.0 to 2.3), lets hope they keep updating their software/firmware on a regular basis.

 

[Rumz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xell Hehe, my girlfriend of all people has advised against me getting the VAIO. GShock and a tad bigger than a credit card... Yep, i'm talking about the NW-HD3. I've pretty much decided on it... Just gone sit on my decision for a week and then i will look around here before going to the store and purchasing On that note, anyone know a good online UK/European store? Amazon seem to be the best, and i get VAT off - roughly £187.

Ehehe... already made up your mind on the HD3 eh? Pretty small for a 20gb player, I agree

I went with the pocket to get 40GB and gapless, basically. If I were going for a 20GB player... I'd give the HD3 some consideration.

 

[Xell]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumz Ehehe... already made up your mind on the HD3 eh? Pretty small for a 20gb player, I agree I went with the pocket to get 40GB and gapless, basically. If I were going for a 20GB player... I'd give the HD3 some consideration.

I respect your views so far... Why would the NWHD3 only be a consideration? Any further advice? This thread has been seriously helpful though

My thoughts:
1)Dont need 40GB
2)Perfect for travelling... Long battery and small&light. It helps that its not all flashy and looks least like a mp3 player - don't wanna get knifed in Rio for it

. As it is for travelling most probs replace it next year, get a new device for uni.
3)Gshock... i dropped my iPod 3 times in one week... go figure

4)SEXY!
5)SonicStage etc not an issue as i will only use it on my PC once, until i get back that is...
5)Cheaper.

All the basic features (from first post) are there plus 1-4 which makes me choose it over a VAIO.

I am however, concerned about the lack of on the go playlists. No ones given me a clear insight into making a group, and what the exactly means

 

[Rumz]

Honestly if I were you the only reason I WOULD consider the Vaio would be for transferring photos, which sounds like you could do without. The reasons I went with the Vaio was like I said, for 40 gigs and a few other picky things. The HD3 sounds like it will do the job for you just fine.

SonicStage is everyone's main gripe with Sony's players, it seems-- not a big deal for me, either.

Playlists vs. Groups: Groups are more like folders on a hard drive. When you transfer music to the player you transfer it in groups. For example, on the Pocket, I have a handful of groups that are just albums-- the group contains all the tracks for the album after which the group is titled. Some groups are compilation groups, which means I have several different tracks by various artists that I've transferred into one group. This is sorta like making a playlist. The main difference is, say you have a group created for a compilation of various artists. You also have the full album by one of those artists in another group on the HD3. What you end up with is having more than one copy of the track on your player (in essence, wasting space).

Playlists are one of the few things that I really miss from the iPod. The Vaio has a playlisting function (only on the fly, though-- can't make playlists in SonicStage, just groups). I don't know if the HD3 has anything equivalent to on-the-fly playlisting.

 

[mr.karmalicious]

Yeah, my statement had no proof at the time. Here ya go-

I would say to get a Rio Karma, that thing has EXCELLENT sound quality. Completely crushes the iPod. 55mW/per channel at 16 ohms. Also has a 5-Band Parametric EQ, if that's your bag. Plays MP3, WAV, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, and FLAC. Very small, too. Looks like just what you're looking for. I really don't understand why so many people think that iPod is the be-all end-all of DAP's, it's horribly mediocre compred to other players...

 

[Rumz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.karmalicious Yeah, my statement had no proof at the time. Here ya go- I would say to get a Rio Karma, that thing has EXCELLENT sound quality. Completely crushes the iPod. 55mW/per channel at 16 ohms. Also has a 5-Band Parametric EQ, if that's your bag. Plays MP3, WAV, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, and FLAC. Very small, too. Looks like just what you're looking for. I really don't understand why so many people think that iPod is the be-all end-all of DAP's, it's horribly mediocre compred to other players...

Here we go again, hahaha.

"Horribly mediocre" is a bit of a generalization and an overstatement-- unless you refer specifically to the iPods EQ (or lack thereof), and perhaps the number of codecs it supports (maybe even the looks-- but that's subject to personal taste anyways). If those things are high on your priority list, then perhaps it is "horribly mediocre". Otherwise I can't complain about sound quality or size. The reason I stayed away from the Karma was that I'd heard to many stories of them breaking (poor build quality). That and I wanted a 40gig player, heh.

 

[chumley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr.karmalicious Yeah, my statement had no proof at the time. Here ya go- I would say to get a Rio Karma, that thing has EXCELLENT sound quality. Completely crushes the iPod. 55mW/per channel at 16 ohms. Also has a 5-Band Parametric EQ, if that's your bag. Plays MP3, WAV, WMA, Ogg Vorbis, and FLAC. Very small, too. Looks like just what you're looking for. I really don't understand why so many people think that iPod is the be-all end-all of DAP's, it's horribly mediocre compred to other players...

I owned a Karma before the 40GB 4G iPod... pretty good sound, but not even as good as 4G ipod's H/O, let alone its L/O... small HD, thicker than a trucker's wallet and just as ugly, IMO... Karma's menus easy to navigate, although the iPod's are both faster and easier to use... audio-wise, which is the ONLY reason I'm going to throw 3 to 4 bones down on ANY portable HD based DAP, the Karma had roll-off in both low bass and highs; running lossless codecs and my Grados or Senn HD25-1s, I missed a LOT of the music that got played... no wonder the 'parametric EQ' is so popular- I had to boost (and bloat) both bass and treble in EQ as crude compensation for the Karma's substandard, no... MEDIOCRE audio output...

The 4G iPod played the entire sonic range, top to bottom, accurately and dynamically, by comparison (and compare is what I did, for two weeks after picking up the iPod at BB, I A/B'd both, with all their compatible codecs, six kinds of headphones and canalphones, two different headamps, and all kinds of music)... sold the Karma, at a steep loss, to a student who just wanted ANY DAP for his MP3s. He didn't mind the upper and lower range rolloffs when listening to his 128kb MP3s through the Sennheiser MX300 ear buds...

for scratch protection, just got a leather case that allows full and easy iPod operation... I could care less if the Karma or the iPod has flecks of 24k gold in embedded in their cases (well, theoretically...

), if the sound isn't great, I want to move on to something else that DOES supply great sound quality. The Karma, while a charming 'lil fistful of features, couldn't clinch it on the core mission, for me... audio quality.

Oh, yeah... the original poster wants iPod 'killers'... that Sony Vaio Pocket (40GB version) sounds like a real contender, and the iRiver 320 sounds good as well... but stone cold killaz? Hey, if the iPod's off your list, it's off your list, right? I'd give the Vaio a try. In a heartbeat.