[chumley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by IstariAsuka This would be a little skewed in this market, given that those who are likely to be easily satisfied, and haven't done any research, make up the bulk of iPod purchases,

Proof of this statement? sounds like bull to me.

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Originally Posted by IstariAsuka whereas this is not the case for other DAPs to the same extent. Us here on Head-Fi find more problems with ALL DAPs and are less easily satisfied in general, simply because they're more knowledgable and demanding. This is not generally the case with iPod ownders, and as such most will be satisfied, and indeed woud have been satisfied with another product as well.

Again, sounds like you are making this up to fit your opinion.


Quote:

Originally Posted by IstariAsuka Still, it would be interesting, yes.

Yes, 'it would be interesting' too, if you would source your 'statistics about iPod owners vs. other DAP owners, please.


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Originally Posted by IstariAsuka I never said that a DAP offering more features would inherently make people more pleased. This, however, is true to some. The fact that other DAPs are cheaper would also matter to some, as would form factor differences, aesthetic differences, battery life differences, etc. Everybody wants different things, and has different priorities. As it is now, however, they just buy an iPod, even if it is not the optimal product for their wants and needs. For many the iPod is the best product, but many others just don't know any better.

I own the Karma, iRiver HP340, a 4G 40GB iPod, and have owned/used all the other later HD-based DAPs from Creative, etc. for years...

Talking about whether someone 'knows any better' applies across the board, not just to Apple's DAP. The fact that you seem to be not only happy with your DAP, but UNhappy that iPod owners, if many of then only 'knew better', would find that Brand X DAP was REALLY the DAP for them is a tad patronizing, IMO.

As an audio pro for 20+ years, a professional audio and video Consultant, and a Sys Admin as well as an Instructor at a local University, I can tell you that I am probably one of the pickiest folks I know when it comes to DAPs, or anything else audio, if only because I have a pretty informed idea, from long professional/consumer experience, what to expect in a given audio device.

Maybe you've A/B'd them all, like me, IstariAsuka... I wouldn't know. But it seems you want to paint the majority of owners of the iPod with the 'marketing dupe' brush a little hastily, and with no other reason or data, apparently, than the fact that you feel like it, IMO.

 

[anty]

I guess I admit I was just frustrated that everyone and their mom had some version of the iPod so I just decided I'd be different so I went out and bought something else. Though I do find the iPods visually appealing, I for one do use the extra features that people I guess typically don't use.

 

[Big D]

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Originally Posted by PodMan lol, I read this at CNET about a week ago. Here is what the Dell president said in a the direct quote: "It's interesting the iPod has been out for three years and it's only this past year it's become a raging success," said Rollins, who is also Dell's president. "Well, those things that become fads rage, and then they drop off. When I was growing up there was a product made by Sony called the Sony Walkman--a rage, everyone had to have one. Well, you don't hear about the Walkman anymore. I believe that one-product wonders come and go. You have to have sustainable business models, sustainable strategy." Link Did he just call Sony's Walkman a one-product wonder? btw, does anyone know how many people traded in their iPods for a Dell DJ back when Dell was running a promotion where you can swap an ipod for a DJ?

I think that lots of people have critisised these comments, but fail to appreciate them. At no point does he call the Walkman a "one-product wonder" but I guess that if you twist his words it makes it true? He is clearly refering to companies that focus on one product.

It is quite a rational point that products come and go. Once Sony dominated the portable music player industry and now they don't. Psion once dominated the personal organiser industry and now don't exist. I don't see what is so hard for people to understand that a company wants to look to long term growth rather than putting the emphasis on one product.

 

[chumley]

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Originally Posted by mech_e The ipod *is* a decent product, but my problem with it (and that of a lot of others I know) is not with the player itself but more the fanboyism that surrounds it. Combine that with lack of Gapless support (If you don't think you need it, you've never had it. I was the same way.), 5 band parametric eq for perfectly matching the current cans, a flexible dock with RCA line-outs and ethernet capabilities, and I don't see the appeal of the ipod other than 1)You're a mac person and this is just easier for you or 2)Its all shiny and pretty or 3)You need one of the myriad of accessories. ipods are good products, but they aren't the only DAP out there.

I don't remember reading that they were the only DAP out there. I also find the 'anything but a friggin' iPod' forum model a MUCH more fanboyish way of behaving on these forums, especially when one creates a 3-item list of lame reasons why ANYONE would own an iPod... the product is what it is.

I prefer an iPod for my everyday portable rig, but I don't fit any of your 'conceivable appeal' reasons. I think MANY iPod owners don't. But you don't see these iPod owners folks slagging Karma, et al owners with a list of 'reasons' one would * conceivably * purchase a Karma, do you? You don't because it would be correctly flamed as iPod fanboy nonsense. You expect a double standard, that pigeonholing iPod owners into one of three 'ghetto areas' isn't classic fanboy posting because...?

 

[mhcarlos]

My first iPod was a gift. It was a 10gig 2nd Gen and it served me well. I decided to upgrade late last year.

I considered other DAPs, like the Karma and the iRiver. I'm not averse to techie devices and feature overload. But I never got to try them. I walked into the Apple Store at Soho and got sold on just getting the 4th gen ipod photo (better SQ, UI, etc.). Although it's not a real photographer's tool (i.e. like a real photo storage device) it's nice to load a little version of my favorite galleries. But even without those features, I would still get another iPod as it served my audio needs in a nice little package and it still makes a decent hard drive for loading my photos when I travel.

I would have liked a drag-and-drop for my songs or gapless for concert albums, but the truth is the iPod delivered what I wanted and needed and I'm a sucker for good industrial design. Plus the fact that I use a Mac and the integration is seamless. So really, the iPod suits me well and I don't mind being identified with 90% of iPod users whom people think are unenlightened consumers. I honestly don't think people can be called stupid even if they go around with the white stock earbuds. They get music on the go and as far as they're concerned, it's money well-spent. People drink soda and it's nothing but sugar water, and that's part of the nature of business and the consumer market.

As for iPod owners bashing non-iPod DACs, that's about as useful a discussion as the opposite case, IMHO. It's like being approached and asked why you're dating your ideal woman when you could be dating your best friend's ideal woman.

 

[viator122]

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Originally Posted by Big D I think that lots of people have critisised these comments, but fail to appreciate them. At no point does he call the Walkman a "one-product wonder" but I guess that if you twist his words it makes it true? He is clearly refering to companies that focus on one product. It is quite a rational point that products come and go. Once Sony dominated the portable music player industry and now they don't. Psion once dominated the personal organiser industry and now don't exist. I don't see what is so hard for people to understand that a company wants to look to long term growth rather than putting the emphasis on one product.

Oh come on, of course he's implying Sony is a one-product wonder. Sony, portables dominated the portable music player market for almost 25 years and who knows, they may do so again. I believe that Apple has struck oil with the iPod and they're going to pump it for as long as they can. I don't feel that they are becoming a "one-product wonder", if anything the iPod has attracted more attention to Apple's other products. I'm quite sure Apple makes as wide a variety of products as Dell does and Sony makes a much wider variety. That guys comments were poorly thought-out and arrogant.

 

[mhcarlos]

I had a Dell laptop before. It makes me wonder why people would listen to anyone from Dell.

 

[mech_e]

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Originally Posted by chumley I don't remember reading that they were the only DAP out there.

The vast majority of the media seems to think so.
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Originally Posted by chumley I also find the 'anything but a friggin' iPod' forum model a MUCH more fanboyish way of behaving on these forums

I never said "anything but an ipod". And I think ignorant fanboyism period is bad. It happens on both sides.
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Originally Posted by chumley ...especially when one creates a 3-item list of lame reasons why ANYONE would own an iPod...

Now who's being the fanboy? I specifically said those reasons were MY reaons. Look, I was going to buy an ipod. I was as infatuated with it as everyone else is. Then, I did some research, and felt that the Karma's needs suited me best. If the Karma didn't exist, I'd probably have gone with the Creative or iRiver based on their feature sets. If being concerned with competitive features is lame, you're in the wrong hobby.
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Originally Posted by chumley ...the product is what it is. I prefer an iPod for my everyday portable rig, but I don't fit any of your 'conceivable appeal' reasons. I think MANY iPod owners don't.

Fair enough. What does the ipod do or do better than other DAPs out there? I used those reasons, because they are the only advantages I can see for myself. If the ipod does exactly what you need, good for you. Congratulations. Its money well spent. My Karma does everything I want it to (including a couple things the ipod can't do), so I consider my money well spent.
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Originally Posted by chumley But you don't see these iPod owners folks slagging Karma, et al owners with a list of 'reasons' one would * conceivably * purchase a Karma, do you?

Not directly. Again, theres a lot of press surrounding the ipod regarding how great it is without any support or mention of other DAPs that are helping the DAP revolution.
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Originally Posted by chumley You don't because it would be correctly flamed as iPod fanboy nonsense. You expect a double standard,

No, I don't. Its just easier for ipod fanboys to get away with it because of their sheer numbers.
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Originally Posted by chumley ...that pigeonholing iPod owners into one of three 'ghetto areas' isn't classic fanboy posting because...?

Well, sorry you felt pigeonholed even though I specifically stated that those ideas applied to ME. I didn't mean to step on any podders toes, but maybe next time you should quit spewing venom and be a little more open to other peoples ideas.

 

[bigshot]

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Originally Posted by Beethovenian How cool to see a fellow lover. But I think your workaround is a poor alternative, equivalent to a publisher eliminating chapters in a book because its printer doesn't have bigger type fonts. Though I admit that makes tagging much easier, and tags are indeed a problem. I just don't see why you shouldn't be able to at one moment go directly to the Dance of the Nursemaids instead of listening to the whole Petrushka or trying to figure out where in a big track it is. Apple's engineers should get their act together. They would force, if so, the others to do the same and the gapless issue to disappear, as it should never have arisen. That would be cool indeed.

I agree that Apple should correct the gapless problem.

But the funny thing is, I've gotten into the habit of joining tracks when I rip, and I would probably continue that even if my iPod was capable of gapless playback. When I listen to classical music, I generally have time to spend, and I listen straight ahead all the way through without skipping around. In fact, a couple of months ago, someone asked me if the iPod played gapless and I thought it did. I hadn't noticed a gap for at least a year. The gap is an easy inconvenience to deal with. I'd much rather join tracks than have to deal with a program other than iTunes. People tend to take iTunes for granted because it's free, but it's one of the best programs of any kind that I've ever used.

See ya
Steve

 

[sno1man]

Heh! yet another sign of the ubiquity of the ipod: putting any kind of provacative word or phrase in front of "ipod" is a sure way to generate a long discussion thread

In any event my last word on the subject, is love it or hate it the ipod has legitamized and made mainstream a very useful product category, the DAP. and as other companies chase Apple's success, we all as music fans should benefit.

 

[IstariAsuka]

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Originally Posted by Me This would be a little skewed in this market, given that those who are likely to be easily satisfied, and haven't done any research, make up the bulk of iPod purchases,

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Originally Posted by chumley Proof of this statement? sounds like bull to me.

Yeah, what am I a research firm to produce statistics at your whimsy? If you have common sense, you will realize this is true, and is true for most products, not just the iPod. Most people don't do research, they just buy what is cheap or, if they have any experience with similar products, what they're heard about or used will influence their decisions a lot too. And as long as it works fine and with a minimal amount of work on their part, they're happy.

Now, let's consider this. Most people who want a DAP have no idea that there is anything else than the iPod, and if they do they assume that it's impossible to use, or simply not as good--somehow. Definately nothing else warrants their attention. I have quite a bit of experience with this, I've seen it happen numerous times. Anyways, back to the point, it follows that most people who buy DAPs buy iPods, and most of them are uninformed. Now, those who inform themselves of their options are more likely to get a non-iPod, because their research has turned up the fact that other players might be better for them. You can see that this is true by looking at head-fi and other audio enthusiast sites. Thus, logically, non-iPod owners are, in general, more informed about the purchase they made.

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I own the Karma, iRiver HP340, a 4G 40GB iPod, and have owned/used all the other later HD-based DAPs from Creative, etc. for years...

Why, that's nice, good for you! You're obviously not the average consumer.

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Talking about whether someone 'knows any better' applies across the board, not just to Apple's DAP. The fact that you seem to be not only happy with your DAP, but UNhappy that iPod owners, if many of then only 'knew better', would find that Brand X DAP was REALLY the DAP for them is a tad patronizing, IMO.

How so? Why shouldn't I wish that people make the best use of their money that they can? Especially when it wouldn't take that much effort on their part Intead, should I be like "dude, squandering your money rocks! Keep it up!" ?

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As an audio pro for 20+ years, a professional audio and video Consultant, and a Sys Admin as well as an Instructor at a local University, I can tell you that I am probably one of the pickiest folks I know when it comes to DAPs, or anything else audio, if only because I have a pretty informed idea, from long professional/consumer experience, what to expect in a given audio device.

Hahaha, you call me patronizing, and then you whip up these credentials on me. Especially the ones that don't mean anything, I like those the best.

You think I'm somehow impressed that you're an instructor at a university? That's nice, I know at least half a dozen personally. Or that you're a sys admin? Again, I know several. It's just not impressive, nor salient to this argument. Your experience with DAPs has nothing to do with these things.

Oh, and maybe you are more picky than everybody else, that's great! This just shows that you aren't the normal consumer, and don't have a normal experience, nor a normal amount of information on this subject.

My argument isn't about people like you, or me, or everybody else on head-fi, it's about the general population.

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Maybe you've A/B'd them all, like me, IstariAsuka... I wouldn't know. But it seems you want to paint the majority of owners of the iPod with the 'marketing dupe' brush a little hastily, and with no other reason or data, apparently, than the fact that you feel like it, IMO.

Again, just because you didn't fall prey to the "marketing dupe" doesn't mean that most iPod owners didn't. The very fact that many don't know that there is an alternative shows my point.

FYI, my point isn't so much different than many people over in the Headphones forum frequently make. Over there it's complaining about average consumers buying Bose Triports when something else for the same price would have been better for them. I'm saying similar things about the iPod. There really is no difference, except that the iPod is a good product. That does not make my argument bad, and definately does not warrant the punishment that a couple people have given me.

PS. Darth Tater rocks!

 

[bigshot]

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Originally Posted by IstariAsuka Anyways, back to the point, it follows that most people who buy DAPs buy iPods, and most of them are uninformed. Now, those who inform themselves of their options are more likely to get a non-iPod, because their research has turned up the fact that other players might be better for them.

Nope. Those that take the time to do the research will find that there are a lot of reasons to get an iPod and not waste time with the less popular players. The reasons have already been outlined several times in this thread... simplicity, smooth integration with iTunes, a wealth of features and a wide variety of available accessories. You replied that none of these mattered to you... Well, that's fine for you. But these things *are* important to the general public.

Most people don't want a player that isn't totally integrated with the software, or requires a separate license to register it and get upgrades. They want an easy way to buy music to load onto their player. They don't want to have to search to find accessories that are compatible. They want to know that the company is available to service and support their player. And most of all, they want to be able to use the player right out of the box with a simple and understandable interface. The iPod gives them all this better than any other model on the market.

Things like gapless play, compatability with a dozen different redundant file formats, built in radios or microphones, and a slightly lower price are all great, but they aren't the reason people buy an MP3 player... They buy one to be able to listen to music *simply*.

I owned a Rio before I got my iPod. But I really didn't know what having an MP3 player was all about until I got my iPod. It's changed the way I listen to music. And it's changed the way millions of other people listen to music too.

Just because most people don't know that other players exist, it doesn't automatically mean that they're making the wrong decision. In this case, the most popular *is* clearly the best. I know you made a different choice, and that's fine. But you don't need to justify it by telling me that I and millions of other iPod users made a mistake. That just sounds like you're unsure and you're trying hard to convince yourself you didn't make a bad decision yourself.

See ya
Steve

 

[IstariAsuka]

You're right, there is nothing wrong with the iPod, and many legitimate reasons to prefer it over any other DAP.

That does not mean that people shouldn't worry about not doing any research, and just assume it's the best product for them. Without having done any research, they won't know if that's true! For this or any other product. And while in this circumstance it is probably true the that the iPod is the best DAP for most people, that's just dumb luck on their part! For all they know about their choices, they may very well have gotten screwed over through their lack of knowledge. Here they didn't, but again, that's just dumb luck.

People need to do research, and not just hope for the best.

 

[Beethovenian]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot I agree that Apple should correct the gapless problem. But the funny thing is, I've gotten into the habit of joining tracks when I rip, and I would probably continue that even if my iPod was capable of gapless playback. When I listen to classical music, I generally have time to spend, and I listen straight ahead all the way through without skipping around. In fact, a couple of months ago, someone asked me if the iPod played gapless and I thought it did. I hadn't noticed a gap for at least a year. The gap is an easy inconvenience to deal with. I'd much rather join tracks than have to deal with a program other than iTunes. People tend to take iTunes for granted because it's free, but it's one of the best programs of any kind that I've ever used. See ya Steve

If it fits you, that's cool. As for me, I'm not willing to tolerate a shortcoming that older technologies didn't have, particularly when other companies have addressed it. And since classical takes something like 90% of my music listening, I'm not the type who always has the time or is willing to sit through a whole long piece. So complain I do.

 

[Frndlefire]

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Originally Posted by IstariAsuka Hahaha, you call me patronizing, and then you whip up these credentials on me. Especially the ones that don't mean anything, I like those the best. You think I'm somehow impressed that you're an instructor at a university? That's nice, I know at least half a dozen personally. Or that you're a sys admin? Again, I know several. It's just not impressive, nor salient to this argument. Your experience with DAPs has nothing to do with these things.

I'm sorry man, whether or not you mean to, in my opinion, you are really coming off as a dick. When I read him list his credentials I didn't think "ooh...he's trying to impress me" I just thought he was merely justifying his opinion in what he feels he is a professional in. And, while perhaps not salient, I would argue that they are relevant. I would take some guy with life experience with DAPs and professional audio over some 13 year old kid who got one for christmas... But hey, I'm a dick for calling you a dick... it all evens out