[some dude]

I have an iPhone 12 Pro currently as my source to play apple lossless to my dac. Is there any real advantage to a dap if all I do is stream Apple Music? If they would make a noticeable difference do any even support streaming from Apple Music? For reference my dac will be a mojo 2 so I’d rather not use the dap chip I just want to feed the mojo 2 high quality source material. Would a dap just be a waste in this scenario?

 

[whitedragem]

Great question; and one that is one of those theoretical vs realworld differences, and hence why I will take a punt at this having recent experience to share, where Apple basically gave me motivation to share this opinion.. (I wanted to share my findings on EXACTLY THIS QUESTION when I was streaming Apple Music from a DAP recently)

Apple MUSIC from a DAP is a disaster.
…but only cause Apple have some really odd ‘anticompetitive/anti consumer’ steps sometimes, and Apple Music is definitely one of them.. (it doesn’t play nice on ‘other platforms’)

So, getting ahead of myself, but didn’t want to put the answer in the TL: DR (Too Long: Didn’t Read) at the bottom of the post…. (so I started with the answer up front… saves people skimming this!)
___________________________________

So the premise is sound: does digital audio output from a DAP have (potentially) better sound than digital music streamed from a phone? (Yes)

This can come down to a few things- a DAP may offer multiple digital output styles (like FiiOs’ M11+ series, they run Apple Music on the Android 10 Operating System) which can use COAXIAL and USB output for moving the digital stream.

The aforementioned M11+ Digital Audio Player has a brilliant circuit board (a forth generation evolution part), with design considering the location of the ‘all crucial’ clock chips (and dual femtosecond clocks at that!). Via USB the DAPs clocks are bypassed, but COAX can allow them to be the master, so depending on your DAC you may get much better audio via one of those outputs..
This is an area where the DAP absolutely smashes phones regarding transporting digital. A DAP, again like the aforementioned FiiO unit, has much consideration go to shielding from RF, and antennna placement focused on ‘better audio’. The power isolation and other layout aspects do make DAPs, generally always, superior to ‘jack of all trades devices’.

But, and this is the big ‘but’; Apple Music doesn’t play nicely on Android (/or non apple ecosystems).

Apple employ many of the worlds best chip engineers, and their software teams make use of dedicated hardware registers (parts of the Apple CPUs) that the software relies on to keep the Apple Devices sipping power whilst delivering fantastic compression using AAC etc.
When the software that does this is ‘ported’ to other platforms, and given Apple are ‘possibly motivated’ to make their products appear ‘stronger’, the Apple Music software is atrocious when running on Qualcomm chips etc.. (non apple hardware)

We could also mention that Android does Sample Rate Conversion, but ‘true’ a great musical DAP would bypass that, so ‘not of concern/‘relevant‘ to the question..

___________________________________________________________

The great news is that Apple hardware does a pretty clean job of transferring digital,.. and Apple Music certainly will ALWAYS run its best on that platform (vs on Android where any random update might leave a person regretting their use of Apple software in an Android ecosystem.)

The only weakness, relatively speaking (vs a DAP) is that a phone will have antenna circuits engaged, and will not have anywhere near the design ideal of ‘pure music device’ that the DAP, as a dedicated tool, can offer.

For most people, when it comes to talking about transport differences, even here in hobbyist circles where we put ‘much weighting on such things’, it is insignificant to the majority.

A great transport will make a DAC really shine, and two ‘near identical DACs’ can sometimes have one ‘pull ahead’ when a better transport is used.
This is more likely to do with the pricepoint of the DAC, or its’ intended market position.
DACs below ‘tier 4’ (an illusionary construct) are generally built to ‘just work’, and will have ‘looser tolerances’ knowing full well they will be running with ‘high jitter rate’ equipment quite potentially.
As we go to higher price points, it is the norm for the (DAC) parts to assume ‘better transports‘ will be paired with them, and therefore they can expect a ’better stream’ (digital hardly transmits perfect zeros and ones like we all assume).

Now, for some those statements I have just shared, regarding equipment tiers and component matching, is so obvious and ‘a given’ that it seems redundant me even having to mention it; yet: to many new to the hobby, or without the education, they will run with the premise that digital, by the nature of being zeros and ones (and zeros and ones being so polar to each other that their “isn’t shades of grey”), is always perfect.

Of course better tranports, of which the M11+ is an exceptional one, truly has Apple Music streaming from it flogging Apple Music streaming from a Galaxy Fold / or Note 10 android device.. ‘better transports’ will do a better job with recreating music, and depending on how casually you listen to the music, may or ‘may not’ matter (to you).

I did enjoy having Apple Music (for a large lossless catalogue at my fingertips) on the DAP, and the sound quality was truly decent. But usability clearly showed Apples’ heart just wasn’t ”really in it”.
profit before people, perhaps…

It makes sense, as why give reasons for ‘non Apple hardware to be used’, the idea is sound from a business perspective.

TL: DR - in just about every instance a dedicated DAP will flog a phone for digital transport duties. (mid range DAPs generally getting better clock chips and circuits with shielding and great power delivery (quite often isolated in higher tiered products))
Dedicated buttons and the devices not being ‘jack of all trades’ (master of none) by their design gives them advantages. Partly being that the device DOESN’T have to be a phone (interuptions etc)
How significant those advantages are to most people is dependant on use case and desired quality (many being happy with ‘consumer -fi’ and hearing no difference from the ‘better parts’.
I would say that the price of a dedicated DAP, if not appreciated for the ‘often subtle’ improvements (by the masses), the money may be better spent on headphone upgrades (very obvious change to sound that EVERYONE will appreciate).
So DAPs are not everyones choice..
Regarding Apple Music, based on how it runs on Android (maybe just my experience, but I have always lamented using iTunes, even though I think MacOS is a brilliant operating system) I would steer clear of the investment pathway. (if you do not like being sometimes frustrated, and like the way Apple Devices ‘just work’)

As digital transports go, iOS doesn’t do sample rate conversion and is quite clever the way the phones pass the digital out. My understanding being that Apple phones are a major upgrade over every android phone in terms of ‘being a transport’ if only for the HARDWARE & SOFTWARE design teams under Apples wing.

____________________________
If running into hyper expensive setup (ie all tier 3 kit and above- then a great DAP will make a very noticable difference, and I wouldn’t give it a ‘second thought’ (I’d run an M11+ (or better)), but for typical hifi rigs as used by ‘mere mortals’; the iPhone will probably be the much better experience, weighed up not by sound quality, but ‘reliability’ and ‘useability’.

So my vote (not knowing the setup): use the phone! (apple being anticompetitive nets them a ‘win’ )

 

[some dude]

Great question; and one that is one of those theoretical vs realworld differences, and hence why I will take a punt at this having recent experience to share, where Apple basically gave me motivation to share this opinion.. (I wanted to share my findings on EXACTLY THIS QUESTION when I was streaming Apple Music from a DAP recently)

Apple MUSIC from a DAP is a disaster.
…but only cause Apple have some really odd ‘anticompetitive/anti consumer’ steps sometimes, and Apple Music is definitely one of them.. (it doesn’t play nice on ‘other platforms’)

So, getting ahead of myself, but didn’t want to put the answer in the TL: DR (Too Long: Didn’t Read) at the bottom of the post…. (so I started with the answer up front… saves people skimming this!)
___________________________________

So the premise is sound: does digital audio output from a DAP have (potentially) better sound than digital music streamed from a phone? (Yes)

This can come down to a few things- a DAP may offer multiple digital output styles (like FiiOs’ M11+ series, they run Apple Music on the Android 10 Operating System) which can use COAXIAL and USB output for moving the digital stream.

The aforementioned M11+ Digital Audio Player has a brilliant circuit board (a forth generation evolution part), with design considering the location of the ‘all crucial’ clock chips (and dual femtosecond clocks at that!). Via USB the DAPs clocks are bypassed, but COAX can allow them to be the master, so depending on your DAC you may get much better audio via one of those outputs..
This is an area where the DAP absolutely smashes phones regarding transporting digital. A DAP, again like the aforementioned FiiO unit, has much consideration go to shielding from RF, and antennna placement focused on ‘better audio’. The power isolation and other layout aspects do make DAPs, generally always, superior to ‘jack of all trades devices’.

But, and this is the big ‘but’; Apple Music doesn’t play nicely on Android (/or non apple ecosystems).

Apple employ many of the worlds best chip engineers, and their software teams make use of dedicated hardware registers (parts of the Apple CPUs) that the software relies on to keep the Apple Devices sipping power whilst delivering fantastic compression using AAC etc.
When the software that does this is ‘ported’ to other platforms, and given Apple are ‘possibly motivated’ to make their products appear ‘stronger’, the Apple Music software is atrocious when running on Qualcomm chips etc.. (non apple hardware)

We could also mention that Android does Sample Rate Conversion, but ‘true’ a great musical DAP would bypass that, so ‘not of concern/‘relevant‘ to the question..

___________________________________________________________

The great news is that Apple hardware does a pretty clean job of transferring digital,.. and Apple Music certainly will ALWAYS run its best on that platform (vs on Android where any random update might leave a person regretting their use of Apple software in an Android ecosystem.)

The only weakness, relatively speaking (vs a DAP) is that a phone will have antenna circuits engaged, and will not have anywhere near the design ideal of ‘pure music device’ that the DAP, as a dedicated tool, can offer.

For most people, when it comes to talking about transport differences, even here in hobbyist circles where we put ‘much weighting on such things’, it is insignificant to the majority.

A great transport will make a DAC really shine, and two ‘near identical DACs’ can sometimes have one ‘pull ahead’ when a better transport is used.
This is more likely to do with the pricepoint of the DAC, or its’ intended market position.
DACs below ‘tier 4’ (an illusionary construct) are generally built to ‘just work’, and will have ‘looser tolerances’ knowing full well they will be running with ‘high jitter rate’ equipment quite potentially.
As we go to higher price points, it is the norm for the (DAC) parts to assume ‘better transports‘ will be paired with them, and therefore they can expect a ’better stream’ (digital hardly transmits perfect zeros and ones like we all assume).

Now, for some those statements I have just shared, regarding equipment tiers and component matching, is so obvious and ‘a given’ that it seems redundant me even having to mention it; yet: to many new to the hobby, or without the education, they will run with the premise that digital, by the nature of being zeros and ones (and zeros and ones being so polar to each other that their “isn’t shades of grey”), is always perfect.

Of course better tranports, of which the M11+ is an exceptional one, truly has Apple Music streaming from it flogging Apple Music streaming from a Galaxy Fold / or Note 10 android device.. ‘better transports’ will do a better job with recreating music, and depending on how casually you listen to the music, may or ‘may not’ matter (to you).

I did enjoy having Apple Music (for a large lossless catalogue at my fingertips) on the DAP, and the sound quality was truly decent. But usability clearly showed Apples’ heart just wasn’t ”really in it”.
profit before people, perhaps…

It makes sense, as why give reasons for ‘non Apple hardware to be used’, the idea is sound from a business perspective.

TL: DR - in just about every instance a dedicated DAP will flog a phone for digital transport duties. (mid range DAPs generally getting better clock chips and circuits with shielding and great power delivery (quite often isolated in higher tiered products))
Dedicated buttons and the devices not being ‘jack of all trades’ (master of none) by their design gives them advantages. Partly being that the device DOESN’T have to be a phone (interuptions etc)
How significant those advantages are to most people is dependant on use case and desired quality (many being happy with ‘consumer -fi’ and hearing no difference from the ‘better parts’.
I would say that the price of a dedicated DAP, if not appreciated for the ‘often subtle’ improvements (by the masses), the money may be better spent on headphone upgrades (very obvious change to sound that EVERYONE will appreciate).
So DAPs are not everyones choice..
Regarding Apple Music, based on how it runs on Android (maybe just my experience, but I have always lamented using iTunes, even though I think MacOS is a brilliant operating system) I would steer clear of the investment pathway. (if you do not like being sometimes frustrated, and like the way Apple Devices ‘just work’)

As digital transports go, iOS doesn’t do sample rate conversion and is quite clever the way the phones pass the digital out. My understanding being that Apple phones are a major upgrade over every android phone in terms of ‘being a transport’ if only for the HARDWARE & SOFTWARE design teams under Apples wing.

____________________________
If running into hyper expensive setup (ie all tier 3 kit and above- then a great DAP will make a very noticable difference, and I wouldn’t give it a ‘second thought’ (I’d run an M11+ (or better)), but for typical hifi rigs as used by ‘mere mortals’; the iPhone will probably be the much better experience, weighed up not by sound quality, but ‘reliability’ and ‘useability’.

So my vote (not knowing the setup): use the phone! (apple being anticompetitive nets them a ‘win’ )

Thanks for such a detailed answer. What constitutes tier 4/3/etc…? My stuff is in my signature btw.

I had Spotify first. Then I tried tidal but didn’t like it. Spotify gui and experience are much better than Apple Music imo but the audio quality difference is very noticeable. The apple one subscription is hard to resist too since it gives the tv and iCloud and arcade for the whole house. I’m willing to put up with a little bit of inconvenience for better sound but it doesn’t seem the cost, effort, or total experience would be worth it. Maybe one day if apple makes their own dap but I’m sure that would be like $2k+ if they did

 

[u2u2]

Shorter answer is you will be good to go iPhone to Mojo 2. You already have the phone and the Mojo 2 is what, on order? Apple Music isn’t perfect but it has been getting better week by week and they keep adding to their offerings. Massively improved in last 7-8 months. You are already in their world and Mojo is a solid easy to use add on. Here is mine from November 2015 and earlier this week… still in use. The Sony DAP you see didn’t make the cut but for the short term. I have gone through a few DAPs but the Apple/Mojo combo has been able to deliver with no bs. Mojo 2 on order and from early reviews and what Rob Watts has posted it will be outstanding. Want to up your game further? Consider adding a Poly… Maybe some favourite tunes on your network in addition to Apple streaming.

 

[some dude]

Shorter answer is you will be good to go iPhone to Mojo 2. You already have the phone and the Mojo 2 is what, on order? Apple Music isn’t perfect but it has been getting better week by week and they keep adding to their offerings. Massively improved in last 7-8 months. You are already in their world and Mojo is a solid easy to use add on. Here is mine from November 2015 and earlier this week… still in use. The Sony DAP you see didn’t make the cut but for the short term. I have gone through a few DAPs but the Apple/Mojo combo has been able to deliver with no bs. Mojo 2 on order and from early reviews and what Rob Watts has posted it will be outstanding. Want to up your game further? Consider adding a Poly… Maybe some favourite tunes on your network in addition to Apple streaming.

Yeah I preordered it so hopefully it will come in a couple weeks. Right now I’m just going straight from my phone with usb to my wa7/wa8 built in dacs. They are not bad dacs but also not amazing dacs, they are about 5 and 7yrs old I think. I’m hoping the mojo 2 feeding them will make a noticeable difference just on the dac alone. Even if its not a huge difference in dac alone the EQ is a huge reason I got it, that and desktop mode were big selling points for my use case. I like your McIntosh amp btw.

 

[u2u2]

Yeah I preordered it so hopefully it will come in a couple weeks. Right now I’m just going straight from my phone with usb to my wa7/wa8 built in dacs. They are not bad dacs but also not amazing dacs, they are about 5 and 7yrs old I think. I’m hoping the mojo 2 feeding them will make a noticeable difference just on the dac alone. Even if its not a huge difference in dac alone the EQ is a huge reason I got it, that and desktop mode were big selling points for my use case. I like your McIntosh amp btw.

EQ, crossfeed, and desktop use without battery sold me. Plus the long term reliability if my Mojo 1 is an example. Love those Woo amps of yours. I agonized a long time over the 7 before getting a 6. You seem to choose very wisely!

 

[some dude]

The 8 is no slouch either but the 7 w/tube psu is my favorite. Put a pair of gold lion tubes in the psu and wow. I wouldn’t mind putting it up against a McIntosh mha200 though.

 

[whitedragem]

(you’ve got this!)

I gather it is good research and/or excellent advice that has landed such a great setup. (likely auditioning?)

The notion of ‘tiers’ of equipment is a wanky concept, but it allows a more generalised way for people to talk about ‘very real structure’ (in some circles).
Like all things that stereotype and ‘classify’, it allows us a ‘common language’ (so why then do I have to explain it? you ask… ) (smiles with you), and as anyone who has retailed and ‘needed a way to interpret ‘loose level of system synergy’’, it is a basis for system building and component integration.

the notion was generally that tier 5 was the entry level kit (considered ‘crap’ by those buying into higher tiers, ‘naturally’ as this is the stuff they justify spending money ‘to get away from’)
tier 4 then becomes the first level of ‘upgraded kit’ above what tier 5 offers.
tier 3 is the typical ‘top of the consumer tree’ (think ’flagships’)
tier 2 starts to be the stuff that reviewers write about and people look at and go ‘not at that price’
tier 1 is the equipment that performs ‘better than tier 2’, but with cost as ‘no expense’ (every aspect of design ideal is towards ‘the best’) (generally we do not see reviews on tier 1 kit)


all of this needs be qualified on a time line.. what was tier 2 kit 20 years ago, over time, as tier 3 kit evolves to better sound quality, effectively slips in status to effectively being ‘tier 3’ level sound.

to slot Chord into that, with ‘a couple of examples’;
the original mojo slayed everything it was up against.. whilst we would think it is Chords’ entry level part, it clearly performs a step above its so called position in the lineup, when put against the rest of the market (this essentially places Chord as a ‘premium’ sound quality (and build quality) brand.) (they don’t sell crap)
So the original mojo wouldn’t be relegated to tier 5 kit (maybe one day in the future when sound has evolved and everything delivers a performance equal or beyond (not likely!!, but I am inserting some pieces into an example, and fleshing it out, by the rules I have put forward))
The Mojo performs like a part in the tier 4 lineup.
So a Hugo, that was a ‘step up part’ should therefore be considered tier 3? (we can see how this is all ‘artificial construct’) (and is based on some premises that equipment actually offers different levels of sound quality, so none of this would belong in a sound science thread..)
The new mojo 2 will likely outperform the original Hugo, so effectively is tier 4 kit by price point and performance may punch, easily very high vs the parts it will be compared against, so will likely have ‘class leading sound quality’. (we used to have a rule for DAC evolution that it was approx every seven years that parts would ‘naturally evolve’ effectively 1 tier higher in sound quality) (this ‘rule’ was based on observation historically, but in the last decade it felt like DAC evolution had started to ‘slow’)

SO when I look at your parts, due to being ‘well curated’ whilst they might be ‘tier 4’ (mostly, bar say ‘the phone’), they actually perform not unlike what is commensurate with tier 3 kit (typically)

Rob would know whether the design of his circuit is ‘generous’ to poor transports or benefits from better transports.
My experience with a Hugo (I used as my primary kit, home and away(hifi stereo rig and headphone sound)) was that it certainly did benefit from an excellent transport (even though it sounded very good without one), and this is a ‘very good thing’ when equipment scales up to better quality when matched with better parts.
Whether Rob has built, as a response to market demographics, a ‘very flexible’ circuit (wide range of equipment matching) only the company would know..
I would consider an iDevice the lowest acceptible transport (to allow said product to shine(on the basis that ‘lesser kit would be choking the product of ‘performance’ it is CAPABLE of giving)
I do feel, when looking at Woo amps and ‘the chain’ that an M11+ (FiiO DAP) (cheapest ‘next tier up’ transport, for the majority), would increase the fidelity of the output (in a few ways, but to prevent stacking observation bias and expectation, I will not list ‘what I would expect to benefit’); I wouldn’t want to cause you reason to feel unsatisfied with your present setup. Your setup is good, and vastly better than what many, even here on headfi, would use to enjoy musical excellence…


And this is the context..
In the present world, most equipment doesn’t have huge failings that have existed in the market at other points in history (like CD players in the eighties, and DVD players in the nineties)

It is all ‘good enough’
From the point of view ‘can it be bettered’.(with a better transport)
absolutely, ‘yes’.
And a FiiO M11+ (as the most concrete example I can give based on having used one AND having owned quite a few tier 2 transports (in some cases ‘tier 1 transports’, but a long while after they hit the market, where ‘improvements had been made in said tier’ so their actual capability would be ‘modern world tier 2’..
The M11+ skirts ‘tier 3 transport territory’
Much like the rest of your system.
It is ‘the matching part’
Unlike an iPhone, that is, as far as I can see, the most glowing/stand out part that might hold back the sound quality that you have bought ‘elsewhere in the chain’.

At this point I would highly recommend that you take your new DAC into a headfi shop and let the sales people show you what happens with the sound quality when you change transports.
If you do not feel it brings ANY benefit, then ‘great’, and enjoy using that iPhone, and even more so, turning it into YOUR DAP, after it has done its’ time serving you as a phone. (turning off the 3g/4g/5g etc network signal is one of many future steps you could then take to have it, potentially, do a slightly better job… )

When I toyed with some top of the line Android devices, specificlaly to use as a DAP (a Note 20 / NOte Fold etc) the amount of ’extra sensors’ I had to ‘turn off’ to get the hardware to play as a ‘very mediocre transport’ (at best), was much effort, and not really viable for anyone who actually uses their phone as a phone…


But much like the enthusiasm being shown you by other posters; you are absoutely ‘good to go’ (GREAT SETUP)..
I suppose I am playing ‘devils advocate’ to tell you that ‘yes’ you could improve the sound quality,.. and is why I gave a reasonably lengthy post to postulate that in the real world, usability of apple music on a ‘non apple ecosystem’ device is somewhat a user experience ‘sacrifice’.

Others say ‘it is getting better’, but that also tells us how easily, by evolution, the interface and engagement could be made worse (and Apple would do exactly that in order to move us back to iDevices, say if they ever did release a DAP(and they have previously -essentially a phone sans the phone aspects; not quite the same thing as a highly engineered part purely with sound quality excellence in mind.))
I find the FiiO M11+, if only to sound like ‘a broken record’ and restate this info a lot, it is a brilliant transport. Prior to using it the best transport I could find was a Questyle QP1R, although the non ‘R’ variant, the QP1 would likely also be an equal transport (the ‘R’ was tuned for better sound, so more so ‘an improved analogue output’).
The QP1(r) flogged a mid tier FiiO (X5iii) so significantly, when used as a transport, that I have really liked looking at the evolution in parts in FiiOs tree, and for me, I bought the M11+ as a transport, for exactly the same reasons you ask.. (hence why taking a punt at the question).
As a transport it blows away what most devices give. (I believe it equals or exceeds the aforementioned Questyle DAP(as a transport) (the FiiO design has incredible board layout, with consideration to clock chip placement (And clock chip selection) and ‘other aspects’, such as isolated power, and shielding, that all qualify it as a much better part to do the job of feeding digital; this may/may not matter to you; but to some headfiers, who use expensive solid state drives rather than platter drives (hard disk drives) due to ‘subtle SQ improvments’, these subtle changes can make audible differences in ‘certain rigs’.)

So theoretically the M11+ (or any ‘GREAT/EXCELLENT TRANSPORT’ DAP) will be a sound quality upgrade (objectively so), but due to ‘real world usablity’, such as carrying your phone with you always, which has net, and can build playlists at any moment (‘cause it is always on you) is a potential advantage.
It isn’t one I would choose to implement, and I hope you can see that I gave advice contrary to my beliefs, and not to ‘harm your setup’, but to aid your happiness.

When we are ‘jumping at shadows’ levels of differences, only you can deem if there is a sound quality improvement with a proper transport.
Based on the kit you use, I would say that ultimately it would be worth sampling the potential (because the potential is there). If you had all tier 5 kit, it would be an absolute waste of time… (on premise of Apple music on android being a poorer experience, so ‘why bother’)

 

[some dude]

Damn you’re about as overly analytical as myself. I appreciate the lengthy feedback. I didn’t even think about shutting off the cellular and BT. I just tried it but it doesn’t seem to make an audible difference on the iPhone, it was worth a shot though. Perhaps it has something to do with the way the phone is engineered? Perhaps my wa8 is just too forgiving to notice the subtle difference? Someday after the mojo 2 shows up I’ll swing by the hifi shop and see if they got any reasonable quality dap to test out with the mojo2/wa8. If there is a big enough difference to warrant the degradation of user experience, convince, and the cost then I’d still probably get one. I’m not usually one to favor ease of use over quality, if I was I definitely would not have a wa8. The thing is a 2.5lb brick that gets too hot to leave on a couch or hold onto but damn it is sexy looking and sounds awesome. Plus it is a cool conversation starter when people see it on my desk at work or wherever, I take the opportunity to let them listen and try to plant the hifi seed in them.