[wolff]

Hi all,

As I haven't found a sub forum where to introduce oneself to the community I have chosen this sub-forum as I have some questions related to DAP's as well.

My name is Ronald de Wolff, Dutch but living in Spain (Mallorca) since 1996. I have been using this forum for my needs over the last years, mostly related to headphones, and anything else what interested me. I just registered yesterday so I could actually post and as I will be purchasing a DAB in the near future I have an eye on the Sell/Trade forum as well. (More about that later)

my audiophile background? Hmm, not like really audiophile in terms of equipment I just like to enjoy audio the best possible way within my budget. I was influenced by my late father with the usual stuff in those days, I'm from '72, tape decks (Teac, Akai) vinyl players and the likes. What I thought and still think as a huge part of quality audio is the timing, preparation and maintenance of the gear. I always remember my father's answer replying to my "why don't you listen to music now?" as being: "I don't enjoy music the same way now as when you and your mum go grocery shopping on Saturday and have the house for myself alone". (But my do I understand it now with a wife and 5 year old son!)
He and my uncle were very much into Pink Floyd, Vangelis, JM Jarre, Mike Oldfield, Yanni, Yes etc. In those days when Michael Jackson was the only thing played (well, as to say) on TV and radio, so listening to "Wish you were here" from my bed when I was supposed to be sleeping or "The Gates of Delerium" was as if I felt an alien, musically spoken. But I loved it and still do!
The thing that made me tick was not just the put-the-needle-on-the-record-and-push-play thing, I liked the cleaning of the records, the needle, setting the AMP up to the music that was about to be played, cleaning the heads of tape-decks etc. etc.
They made me aware of how a record sounded "just like that" and how it could sound with everything in tune, clean and well prepared.
So while living in Rotterdam I did my best to buy the best equipment my money could buy. At the age of 15 that's not a lot so I was really enjoying the second-hand departments of good stores. That way I could by an Onkyo amp, Akai cassette (GXC-510D series I think it was), Teac tape deck to record longer then the 90Min cassette limit, separating the 4 channels etc. etc.
Man, I even got my hand on a second (or 10th?) hand Nakamichi cassette deck! I really enjoyed the search for the best sounding component for the lowest possible price, or the price I could afford. What has happened to the second-hand market as it was back then?
From those days the Sony Walkman started to appear and my urge to take the music with me was awakened! My portable rig those days was some sort of a Reporter type cassette deck. A Sony with the likes of a TC-D5M, although I doubt if it was that high class....!
When the Walkmans arrived I was over the moon and bought the best I could afford: WM-DD's, I think I had 3 of them over the years! Combined with special metal cassettes (think they where Sony 46 and 72 minute tapes) that could cost half of a new LP (!!) and I was in heaven!! I have had some portable cd players, some better than others and that was more or less it about portable rigs. I grew up, had less time on the bus, train etc. so portable wasn't a priority anymore. Now I was more into car audio head units with good sound as now my travelling was done by car. My current unit is a Clarion DXZ-748RMP and soon to be added Coral BLK-165 separates. (Simple but a great sounding unit and speakers)

Now, finally I come to portable MP3.....about time, right?
I want to have some portable player to enjoy music on the way as I have more time (*) and can spend some time skating, walking, cycling etc. Obviously I want to go accompanied with music!
I have read a lot of reviews the last 2 months about DAP's, X5L, Karma, I7, Fuze, Vibez and a large etc.
Audio is my one and foremost desire out of the unit, no video, games, gimmicks or stuff needed, just great audio to drive my current Koss75 (soon added Senn PX100 and PL30's, I hope!)
Now, as you can imagine I don't care buying a second hand unit for the price of another unit which is new as long as the second hand unit delivers better sound quality. (X5L, H120 or clip and Fuze for example)
Size of the unit is not something that concerns me, those Sony Wm-DD II walkmans were big and heavy but I toted them around almost everywhere as I loved them!!

I am planning to buy a DAP in about 3-4 weeks time as at the moment I am recovering from 3,5 months without any income.
(My wife and I worked for an Airline that closed recently after working there 9 years and we still have wages from the last 3 months pending!! With a 5yr old kid and mortgage and NO income from either of us since October, we both worked there, all reserves have gone out the window over December festivities etc! Beginning of February we will get back on track with incomes again!!)
I have seen some great units that I like based on the good reviews and/or user’s input on forums: Trekstor Vibez, X5l, Fuze, i7 and a Pacemaker amongst others.
(I see Quaddy has the Pacemaker for sale and if that would be still on sale next month I would buy it straight away! But not a possibility at this moment)


Now some questions related to the actual SQ of DAP's and how these are “rated” and understood.
Would it be possible to use the exact same sound file amongst various users and DAP’s? (Possible as to artist’s protection laws etc.) If it would be possible to publish in the same review the sound files used then everybody could download that file and try that on their own DAP. If this file would be used on the same DAP but from different users then the sound that reaches the user would be as similar as possible and would leave less option for different interpretation of the sound of this DAP. At the same time someone interested in buying a new DAP could listen to it on its current DAP and see if what he hears is very different then what the reviewers say they hear. (I hope you get the idea what I’m trying to say)
Some Artists have websites from where you can download samples and sometimes even an entire song. Maybe these could be used as review material.

Lastly something related to the “ranking” of DAP’s and especially from different era’s. I mean, the X5 and H120, Karma etc. are considered to produce an excellent sound quality, but so is the Fuze and D2 for example. I really like the way a German Car audio magazine ranks the products they review. (Car & Hi-fi I think it is called)
They review a product and rate a lot of different things of the product, then added all the points they receive a final note. This note relates to the total sum and thus overall quality of the product. Then the product appears in a list and until there are other products with better ratings it remains there. This is the interesting part, a 3 year old product might have a better rating then a new released product. This way it is very easy to compare “quality” of an older product with that of a new released product. By the way, the price of an item is not taken into account to concentrate purely on the quality of the product. “Not because product “X” costs 5 times more than product “Y” it actually means that the quality of product “X” is 5 times better”. (In that magazine some cheaper head units score way better then head units that double or even triple their price, it is even more pronounced with speakers)
Maybe some sort of table could be used on the end of each review by members to give points or score to the item reviewed. This way forum readers might get a clearer idea how product “X” compares to product “Y”.

I think I have just written the longest post ever in any forum…..sorry for the long read!!

Greetings to all and I look forward to actively become part of a great community.
Ronald

 

[LaBreaHead]

Welcome to Head-Fi (officially, even though you have been lurking for a while).

I'm not fazed by long posts -- you had been working up to that one a long time!

Sorry about the income situation. A lot of people have that sort of thing to deal with ... which brings up what I think is a fundamental issue especially in the age of recession:

Does one ease into the portable audio world prudently and economically? Or does one skip the "in-between" steps and get something high-end right away?

I think it's a foregone conclusion that if a person is posting here, some kind of audio is going to be important to the quality of life, if at all affordable ... a lot of listening pleasure could be derived from even a 1GB Sansa Clip, for example, if the user can only afford the price of that Clip. So what do other Head-Fi members say? In the OP's case (remember, there's a family to think of), does he buy something "sensible" and value-priced (but that performs very well, such as a Sansa Fuze), or does he go higher-end to start with?

I'm not questioning the need for good audio -- far from it. But based on circumstances, do we recommend, say, a Fuze and a Clip, as a value package, vs. a higher-end Kenwood, a used Karma, etc.?

For example, players I have include a Karma, an iPod Nano and a Clip ... and if I love the music I'm listening to, the value-priced combination of the Clip and PX-100s makes me very happy (really quite a "big" sound) -- a lot more than I would have imagined when I first entered the world of DAPs. And the iPod sounds surprisingly good to me through FutureSonics Atrio M5s. So I guess my message to a family man who loves music but has known a tight family budget is, "Don't overdo if you can't justify it financially" ... do it, but don't overdo it right now. You'll be surprised how good even the practical, economical Clip or the Nano (I got a factory refurb at a good price) can sound. As long as you're in the game, you're better off than you would be with no music.

Just my thoughts ... Whatever you get, have fun. Life is short.

 

[wolff]

Thanks for your reply, really apreciated!
I was and am thinking about someting like a Fuse or Clip because of the economics at the moment. Like you said, better to spend 1 hour listening to a nice and affordable DAP then 1 hour longing for a high-end DAP you don't have!
By the way, I would choose the Fuze as the Clip seems soooo tiny, I'm afraid that if I press a button it will flip around and fall! The Fuze seems "grippier", easier to hold.
On a side note, I have mentioned some high-end DAP's in my post I know, it's not that I would go directly for the best (and most expensive) equiment there is, but, I know myself and how long I usually enjoy my items once I have them. (Hence my intereset for second hand DAP's that are out of production)

I made a comment about the Pacemaker, I would like to clarify that one as that seems to be like insane as a first DAP: if after reading a lot of reviews and post I think if this unit is worth the 499 euros it now costs here in Spain, then 350+ euros for a slightly used is a good price.
It is a massive amount of money, I agree, and at this moment it just looks even more! But the possibilities it has, audio wise, is incredible and looks really like fun to use. (I long ago recorded cassettes watching the VU-meters (how I miss those things!), pitch, bass/treble, gain etc. even cutting and pasting tapes to my liking! Would in a way be going back in time and enjoy "working" the music again)

But, as with all things in life, first things first! My family, mortgage, hey even filling the fridge, are first in line! (But with the discharge or settlement I will receive from my former company I can give myself a treat! (After a small holidays with the family!!) Only then and like that I would spend this kind of money, but for now, I think something the likes of a Fuze or the tiny clip with my Koss 75's will make me more than happy! Better times will come without a doubt!

I call it a night as it is 04:15 local here and tomorrow my son will want to play with me!
Great weekend to everyone