[Piffles]

Hey up Folks,

As the second big step of my setting up a complete stereo package for myself. After many months of discussing, suggesting and reviewing, I settled for the source and headphones for my setup:
Source: USB interface M-Audio FastTrack Pro
Headphones: AKG K501
I've still yet to try the K701 pads, which I have received recently, on the K501.

Next step for me is getting a stereo integrated amplifier and my budget is around 750euros (absolute max 1000euros). For the time being, the amp will only be used as a headphone amp as I'll be waiting a little while before getting some floor standing speakers. That will take a lot more hunting than the rest of the system I think. I'm not considering a dedicated headphone amp since my dad's Rotel 1062 speaker amp does a great job on headphones (K501s and K601s sound great out of it, much better than straight out his Marantz CD67SE or my M-Audio FastTrack Pro) and I'm gonna need a speaker amp one day anyway.

I don't need all that many inputs: as I said, it's probably only ever gonna be connected to one single source. 1 recording output should be sufficient too; I may record from a radio or tape but nothing special. My USB interface does all the instrument recordings with condenser microphone. Not really interested in direct output from the pre-amp since I definitely won't be getting a seperate power-amp. I'm pretty touchy on build quality because I'll probably be keeping this amp for many years.

So far, I've selected the following amps in my price range:
- Creek Evolution
- NAD C352
- Denon PMA-1500AE
- Vincent SV121
- Audiolab 8000S
- Vincent SV-226 MK2

I've intentionally left out Marantz because I've never liked any of their amps (I like their CD players though) and the Rotel 1062 because that's what my dad has - and you can't get the same thing as your dad, can you?

My question to the community:
How would you describe the sound signature of the products mentionned above?

I've read several reviews. All of these have had some kind of award of the past few years. The Creek, NAD and Denon are often described as having a few flaws in pure sound quality but making that up by being punchy and lively. The NAD in particular is said to have great sound but looks cheap and is cheaply built. The Audiolab is often presented as the "outsider that is surprinsingly good". But I must say I don't like the look of it. Haven't really been able to find much on the Vincents. I'm intreged by the "hybrid" design of the SV-226 MKII but it's also the most expensive on the list.

My gut feeling is to go with the Creek Evolution.

I've looked around the forum; there seems to be quite a lot of people looking for amps in this price range. Might prove to be an interesting comparison for a few people.

See you around and thanks for your input,
Piffles.

 

[tinder]

I have the Creek Evo and it has a very acceptable headphone output in my opinion...I've also owned the Creek OBH21 headphone amp and would say that they are comparable.

 

[noseallinit]

I really dig NAD products! NAD claims they put more into the inside than on the outside. I'm on my second NAD system and have been quite happy with both.

I prefer the clean simple looks of their design but mostly on some of the older products. the new C315Bee Integrated Amp holds true in this fashion. I think it's a beauty and with plenty enough power for me.

my current NAD 710 has no headphone output(why I have a headphone amp) on it but I have always read that NAD has very good headphone outputs.

one thing I notice when NAD list features on their products like the C352 is that it says Headphone Socket or Output. on other models like the C162 Preamplifier it says Independent Headphone Amplifier. something you may want to inquire about..

 

[Zorander]

Cyrus amps sport nice headphone out.

 

[basman]

I've been in this difficult the same situation before in selecting my first pure audio only setup since my dream stereo system is impossible for me to acquire due to financial constraints and even if i have the budget I cant hide the cost to my wife. Anyway im referring to BAT amps, until I broke down my choices between Nad and Rotel and ended up to Rotel separates which is im very much satisfied and proud of.

Since you've heard your fathers 1062 and it will take time to acquire speakers better get the rotel preamp only I suggest the new RC1082 or the proven RC1070 and avoid any regrets.

Here are the factors that arrives me to choose rotel over nad:

1. Excellent Synergy with my VA Grand Haydn and B&W 805 speakers.
2. Simple and well built construction.
3. Uses high quality parts
4. Shortest signal amp implementation
5. Balanced Design Concept (Poor man's BAT)

 

[Piffles]

Well I spent my Saturday annoying Hifi dealers in town. I made the following 'progess' if you can call it that. I had various amplifiers hooked up to marantz CD player and B&W speakers.
- The NAD C352 sounded boring: no particular warmth or attack. You might say a good transparent amp, but it just put me to sleep. No involvement in the music.
- The Vincents sounded very warm and pleasant but sloppy on acoustic stuff (guitars, percussions).
- The dealer hooked up the Rotel 1062 just as a reference. Very good sound: highly detailed and slightly aggressive, but not what I'm looking for.
- After this remark, the dealer got out an Exposure 2010S which had wonderful sound: warm, pleasant, emotional but also fast and insicive enough to render acoustic instruments decently.

Problem is: Exposure 2010S is 1100€ and has no headphone output. Ideally, I need an amp with similar signature as the Exposure but with headphone output.

Still have no info on the Creek (other than the dealer's opinion: 'similar to Rotel') and the Denon.

The dealer suggested the Arcam A70 as a headphone capable alternative to the Exposure. Anyone have this amp? Would you consider it rather warm or rather detailed and analytical?

Cheers,
Piffles.

 

[InSides]

I can give you some insight on the Denon.

For the past couple of weeks, I have enjoyed a new setup based on Denon components and Canton speakers. I am using a PMA-1500AE, sourced by both the DCD-1500AE disc player and the TU-1500AE tuner. Electronics connected to a pair of Canton Karat 730 DC bookshelf 3-way's.

In my room, they are very synergistic and provide a nice, tight, coherent sound. I am coming from a Rotel/B&W setup and am very much used to the sound of the Rotel amps [both integrated and separates]. I wouldn't say the Denon is better [well, maybe a bit

] - it is certainly very different. It comes with a certain sound that is pretty much love/hate. I have never met people that liked it so-so. You either love it or hate it. With my speakers it does wonders.

But you wanted an amp with a good headphone out. The Denon has been _exquisite_ with my K-701, as well as the DT-990Pro... I didn't think it matched much with the HD-650, but that might be due to the fact that I haven't spent much time with them lately. Note I have mostly used dedicated preamps and integrated for powering my headphones without much regret so far - at one time, I had a balanced setup with two Rotel preamps. While I felt it was an improvement, I couldn't justify the cost increase so I defaulted back to single ended with the Denon system. Haven't regreted it yet.

But I would say you need to hear the Denon before you decide what to do. At the same time, if you are a believer in break-in, note that the Denon uses a number of boutique parts that people have said benefit from break-in. I would suggest [if possible] listening to one that has some hours under the hood.

Ultimately, I don't think you will make a mistake with either of the amps you listed. I can only vouch for the Denon and Rotel from personal experience, though.

 

[Tyler J]

The Cambridge Audio Azur integrateds have been getting good press lately, they would be first on my list to check out. I have not heard anything regarding the headphone out.
good luck with your search

 

[Zorander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piffles /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I spent my Saturday annoying Hifi dealers in town. I made the following 'progess' if you can call it that. I had various amplifiers hooked up to marantz CD player and B&W speakers. - The NAD C352 sounded boring: no particular warmth or attack. You might say a good transparent amp, but it just put me to sleep. No involvement in the music. - The Vincents sounded very warm and pleasant but sloppy on acoustic stuff (guitars, percussions). - The dealer hooked up the Rotel 1062 just as a reference. Very good sound: highly detailed and slightly aggressive, but not what I'm looking for. - After this remark, the dealer got out an Exposure 2010S which had wonderful sound: warm, pleasant, emotional but also fast and insicive enough to render acoustic instruments decently. Problem is: Exposure 2010S is 1100€ and has no headphone output. Ideally, I need an amp with similar signature as the Exposure but with headphone output. Still have no info on the Creek (other than the dealer's opinion: 'similar to Rotel') and the Denon. The dealer suggested the Arcam A70 as a headphone capable alternative to the Exposure. Anyone have this amp? Would you consider it rather warm or rather detailed and analytical? Cheers, Piffles.

Your experience with the NAD and Rotel units closely match mine. I think you'll like the Cyrus sound.

Cheers!

 

[plaidplatypus]

I am selling (if I can find a buyer) or giving away, an Arcam A75 plus. I would say it's headphone out is better than most A/V receivers but that's not saying too much. I've been told the Creek Classic is very good but I've not owned one.

If I were in your shoes I would get a nice headphone amp with a tape loop and a pre-out and shop for a power amp to match your speakers. The HeadAmp GS-1 has all the features you will need. See HeadAmp - Audio Electronics and Send Justin an e-mail.

 

[Piffles]

Ok, thanks for your recommendations. I'll include Cyrus in the short list. The Cyrus 6vs2 is below 1000€ but is not very powerful at all apparently. That will probably restrict my choice of speakers quite a lot. But I'll listen to it anyway; see what the sound is like.

So, still in the race (all with required features) are:
- Creek Evolution (still no idea what it sounds like)
- Denon PMA-1500 AE ("love or hate" sound)
- Arcam A70 (from what I've read, very smooth and musical)
- Cyrus 6vs2 (the underpowered, modest-looking outsider that might just be the one)
- Audiolab 8000S (on paper, does everything I need, and cheep, where's the catch?)

Hopefully, I'll find some time next week (and a cooperative dealer) to test them.

 

[milkweg]

You don't like the look of Audiolab? I have Audiolab 8000A and it looks great to me.
What's different about S and A model? It's the 8000A that I usually see as getting nods for having a decent headphone output in an integrated amp but I expect the S model is the same. It has a seperate headphone section with its own transformer and doesn't use resistors connected to the speaker out section like a lot of integrated amps and recievers do. Back in the early 90's British Head-fi magazine rated the Audiolab 8000A as the best all around integrated amp in its class. That means they rated it higher than Arcam, Linn, Rotel, NAD etc. You can find used 8000A on eBay for a lot less than your budget is set at.

I saw one headfier some time back say IHO that 800A has best headphone section of any integrated amp.

I used to have a Denon integrated amp before I went Audiolab and they are not even in the same class even though their power rating was the same. Denon are good but not that good. Mind you, the Audiolab cost twice as much back then too. Maybe Denon is better these days? At the time I also listened to Rotel, NAD, Sugden and Arcam before settling on the Audiolab. Sugden was really nice but more than I wanted to spend.

 

[Piffles]

Thanks for reminding me of the Audiolab. Nobody seems to think much of it. I mentionned it to the dealer last week, he just shrugged and went "yeah, but you can get better nowadays".
It's not easy to find either. But I could get a really good deal on the 8000S. And I have to admit it's intriguing that it can work at pre-amp alone or power amp alone. Can't seem to find any info on the headphone output though.

I would be a great option, if only I could get to listen to it...

As for the Denons, the AE series is a serious improvement over Denon's previous stuff. At least, that's what I conclude from what I've been reading. Pretty much everyone agreed that Denon was total crap until the AE line arrived, apparently.

 

[cribeiro]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyler J /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Cambridge Audio Azur integrateds have been getting good press lately, they would be first on my list to check out. I have not heard anything regarding the headphone out. good luck with your search

I have an Azur A640 v1 and use the headphone out with my HD650. Of course, it has more power than necessary to drive them. Regarding the sound quality, I do not find it as good as a dedicated headphone amp, but close enough (the bass is not tight, that's the biggest flaw).

I compared it with my Porta Corda MkII (mine) and with a Corda Aria (friend's), which were both better. The Porta was second hand, and I would buy it again. I was tempted to buy the Aria, but decided the improvement with respect to my Azur was not worth the investment.

 

[InSides]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piffles /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for the Denons, the AE series is a serious improvement over Denon's previous stuff. At least, that's what I conclude from what I've been reading. Pretty much everyone agreed that Denon was total crap until the AE line arrived, apparently.

Denon was pretty much focused on their multichannel home-cinema offerings up until the AE series. Just take a look at the Denon site for USA and you won't even find the new stereo products [with the exception of the PMA-2000IVR, but I don't think it is the same as the AE one]. They are trying to make a re-entry into this segment, hence the usage of boutique components througout the AE range.

But again, you have to take a listen before you decide.