Info & review(s): Linnenberg Audio udc1, asynchronous USB DAC
Jan 13, 2012 at 3:36 PM Post #31 of 46


Quote:
Well.. yes DACs that have been named "studio DAC" will not have the non transparency.
But DACs are DACs. And there should be plenty of non studio DACs as well that are truly transparent.
I've just had bad luck / bad insight / made bad choices in this regard.
 
But I'll still keep looking at the new HiFi DACs.
There's simply more choice here, and quicker to adopt things like asynchronous USB, and there are better prices to be had in HiFi designated DACs.
Wish I had the money to simply buy an expensive "studio mastering DAC" (somewhere between 3000 - 8000 dollars), but I don't.
And still think such a sound should be possible to be had for around 1000-1500 dollars. I'll keep searching.
 
BTW, have decided to send back the udc1..
Really feel sad about this as it's such a pleasure to listen to music through it.
Maybe one day I'll have more money again and can afford to get it again, to use it next to another analytical / transparent studio DAC.
 
 
edit: I'm not sure which DAC you're referring to with "Halo metric HN2", did you misspell it?
You mean a Metric Halo DAC I assume? I only need stereo DA from my computer.


Yes I ment metric halo UNL-2 but it also goes by the name of Sonic Studio 302 but they are the same http://www.thomann.de/pt/metric_halo_mobile_io_uln2_expanded_2d.htm it probably does more than you need but trust me the dac section does it, search about it.
You have plenty studio fish at 1-2k and bit less so the money argument isn't really valid.
 
 
Jan 13, 2012 at 5:52 PM Post #32 of 46

 
Quote:
Slackman: I enjoy reading your posts. They are sort of a trainwreck, but of the fun variety!
 
Seriously though, I am all for you posting your "stream of consciousness" style impressions. Some people probably identify with your style much more than mine, so all types of reviews/impressions are good to have around. I don't know that I agree with every single one of your conclusions (specifically about ASRC not removing jitter....) but for the most part we are on the same page. 
 
I'll say again that I don't think the ESS Sabre chip has a specific "sound" and that you might as well try any potentially good DAC that appeals to you. It doesn't matter if it sports a chip from ESS, TI, Cirrus, AD, or whatever. There are plenty of examples of good, bad, and mediocre designs using each of those chips so no reason to limit your choices. 
 
What do you have your sights set on next? Any ideas?



Glad you enjoyed it :)
I can understand it makes for entertaining reading haha.
I was planning on doing it more clean this time, but the excitement of listening to a new DAC got to me it seems.
 
About the ASRC. If I understand correctly how it basically works..
The digital audio is basically "sampled" and interpolated to a new clock.
So all the errors (jitter/timing errors) in the original digital signal, are used "as is" to calculate the new sample points, which are then clocked with a new clock.
After this, only the jitter of the new clock is quoted. But the new signal is not bitperfect anymore and contains all the errors of the original signal.
This doesn't sound like real "jitter reduction" to me.
Now I'm not sure what other methods are used to actually reduce jitter before the interpolation.
(edit: the thing is, how would you know what the ideal perfect no jitter clock is of the incoming stream in order to relate it to the new clock? you don't know. you still have the same problem of underruns or overruns if you assume a certain perfect clock for the incoming signal. So it's still messy. Only now you're also adding on top of the jitter errors interpolation algorithm errors for the asynchronous sample rate conversion which are themselves audible like a bad upsampler. At least that's how I interpret the info I read and how I see real world logic of digital audio. If I'm wrong someone please tell.)
The white sheet of the Sabre DACs mentions a weird looking method of modifying samples close to the edge of sample changes or something.
Really useless info, can't make anything of it (perhaps there is more info on this somewhere else? or perhaps it is proprietary) but I don't trust it (it modifies bits). Though the Sabre DAC doesn't use "normal" ASRC since it used such a high sample rate to convert into.
 
That said..
Yes, I do think I know which DAC I'll try next.
The Anedio D2 of course :)
I'm very suspicious of it actually. No raving beforehand.
But I have hopes that it's errors in any areas are small enough to make it a DAC I can really work with well.
I'm ready to compromise. And I'm seeing and hearing all DACs have to compromise. And the D2 seems like a good bet to have been designed with sensible compromises, skilfully to a budget.
The only bad thing about it is that I'll have to pay the full price. No tax brakes for me when ordering from the USA (though import costs I should be able to get back)
It'll stretch the limits of my budget (if I'm guessing the price right). Will have to postpone certain room treatment and other things because of it.
 
Jan 13, 2012 at 6:57 PM Post #33 of 46
 
Anedio D2 ?
 

 
 
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Jan 13, 2012 at 10:10 PM Post #34 of 46
My friend's a computer music composer/performer, and she uses the Apogee Rosetta 200 with a couple of mid-sized Genelecs for her primary setup.  But it's a couple years old now, and their top model is now $3500.  I forgot, are you using a K&H subwoofer with your setup, or just the monitors?  
 
Jan 13, 2012 at 10:43 PM Post #35 of 46


Quote:
My friend's a computer music composer/performer, and she uses the Apogee Rosetta 200 with a couple of mid-sized Genelecs for her primary setup.  But it's a couple years old now, and their top model is now $3500.  I forgot, are you using a K&H subwoofer with your setup, or just the monitors?  



Hi Avu,
 
I've never heard Apogee converters.
Their MiniDAC seems very similar to the Lavry DA10 and Mytek Stereo96 that I did own however.
But indeed these converters are many years old now and the Lavry and Mytek not to my taste at all, the K+H O300 demand better.
I have heard several Genelecs however, but did not like those at all. Very different from K+H, and not very transparent if you ask me.
 
I'm not using the subwoofers with my O300, they do not require one as their (ruler flat) frequency response extends to very low.
Even lower is not that important, the main reason for adding the (very expensive) subs to O300's is to give more SPL before the limiters kick in.
Btw, here is a comment on the O300 by one of the biggest names in mastering, Bob Katz:
http://www.gearslutz.com/board/mastering-forum/212072-comparison-bet-focal-twin6-lipinski-l707-k-h-o300d.html#post3806698
He talks about the great (neutral) tonality of the O300. This is partly due to the special waveguides, their off-axis behavior is much better than normal speakers, as such the sounds more even (and they do not excite the room much as well). And they have an ever bigger strength, they have maybe the best impulse behavior of all studio monitors.
Non ported design, extremely true bass response, extremely quick mids and highs, and highs are very transparent combining the best of metal and soft dome tweeters.
The O300 are the main reason why I'm so critical with DACs now. Before, differences between DACs were subtle, but now.. pfff it's driving me crazy.
I can read it in comments too. Some people comment that the O300 are recessed in the mids.. they're not, it's due to the DAC they're using.
Right now with the udc1 the O300 sound mid forward for instance :)
 
Jan 14, 2012 at 8:16 PM Post #37 of 46
I looked up the 0300's after this, and I found glowing reviews all over for them.  I was suprised, because they're cheaper than the Genelecs people I know seem to use.  Maybe it's just because genelec - like apogee - is an older brand that is still hanging on it's former reputation.  I'd definitely like to hear the 0300's at some point.  
 
Szadzik mentioned the Lite Audio - I'm wondering if maybe you'd be better with the burr-brown 1704 chips that are now harder to come by.  That's what's in the Lite Audio and the Audio-Gd 7.  You might also consider the Tranquility SE or the PDX they talk about in the australian forum. Getting up above $2000 though...
 
Jan 14, 2012 at 9:23 PM Post #38 of 46


Quote:
I looked up the 0300's after this, and I found glowing reviews all over for them.  I was suprised, because they're cheaper than the Genelecs people I know seem to use.  Maybe it's just because genelec - like apogee - is an older brand that is still hanging on it's former reputation.  I'd definitely like to hear the 0300's at some point.  
 
Szadzik mentioned the Lite Audio - I'm wondering if maybe you'd be better with the burr-brown 1704 chips that are now harder to come by.  That's what's in the Lite Audio and the Audio-Gd 7.  You might also consider the Tranquility SE or the PDX they talk about in the australian forum. Getting up above $2000 though...



Thanks for the suggestions.
But I've decided on trying the Anedio D2 next.
Should sound similar to for instance a Weiss DAC2 if I'm reading things correctly (proven studio/mastering converter), and it has a 30 day return policy just like the Linnenberg udc1.
$1470 is truly my limit financially at the moment (with trouble). I can look at more expensive DACs but only if the second hand price is below $1500, but second hand may give trouble selling on should a DAC not be as I hope (again).
 
About the O300, they are more expensive than a similar Genelec I thought?
The price is about 1800 euro per speaker here (so 3600 euro per pair, about $4550), but for these speakers I consider that cheap.
They also have bigger models, the O410 and O500, but those cost serious money.
But as always with speakers.. you need a big good room! Otherwise it's mostly wasted. And big rooms are expensive :frowning2:
Together with the O300 it's why I'm broke for the foreseeing time. But well worth it! :)
 
Jan 15, 2012 at 2:37 PM Post #39 of 46
There is an Anedio D1 for sale for $1000 right now in the Source Classifieds section if you want to check it out.  
 
I'm not really a speaker person, but the 8in Genelecs (model 8250a - about $2250 ea.) are only two way.  The first 3 way Genelecs are the 10in 8260a's, and they run about $5000 each.
 
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/709543-REG/Genelec_8260APM_8260A_390W_10_Active.html
 
She loaned me a pair of her mini 5in 8030's to test some dacs this week, but I've found them pretty much useless given their poor bass response (starts at 60htz) - furthermore, in order to get a decent sound with them, I have to crank them up loud, and I live in an apartment building and can't really do that.  
redface.gif

 
But talking loudspeakers, I don't know what they are, but you should hear the set up in La Monte Young's Dreamhouse downtown in TriBeCa - those are some serious speakers!
 

 
Jan 15, 2012 at 6:41 PM Post #40 of 46
Thanks for the heads up on the second hand D1.
I was considering it, made $850 offer. But seems they will sell for $950. (edit: I meant in general, not this specific seller who is firm on $1000 it seems)
For $500 more I get a new D2 with great built in async USB solution, a bunch of small improvements (which I bet will be subtly audible), better looks, and a 30 day return policy.
So I took the jump and pre-ordered the D2. Wish it would ship faster than end of February.. though it gives me time to sell stuff to come up with the money :)
 
About the Genelecs, yes that 8 inch model is probably most comparable, even though it's a 2 way. (and it will probably still go louder than an O300 in the bass)
The 3 way Genelec is much bigger than the O300 and would compare against an O410 I guess.
Didn't realize they were also this pricey.
The small 5" or 6" speakers that every manufacturer puts out it seems are not really that usable in my opinion (except for the hobby bedroom musician), the bass is very compromised on all of them, not only in extension but also because of port resonance giving a very fake port bass. I once tried out a bunch of them. (btw may indeed be you have to play them somewhat loud to load the port, not sure about this, but the frequency response for ported systems is often not the same across all volumes. But in any case, speakers should be played fairly loud, roughly about 85dB RMS, because of the equal loudness curve of our ears/hearing)
 
Nice atmosphere in Young's room! :) But I live on a different continent hehe.
Really like some of his music too!
And I'm sure those big speakers sound great, but I hope everybody knows that this is not the proper way to place speakers right? :)
Room could use furniture and treatment too ;-p
 
Jan 15, 2012 at 9:02 PM Post #41 of 46
Warning, off topic blurb about speakers.
 
 
I honestly would hesitate before buying 2 ways with large drivers such as Dynaudio Air 12, Genelec 8050... those have 8" drivers and if the crossover frequency isn't low enough you'll run into cone break up issues. Essentially, a cone isn't infinitely stiff and at higher frequencies, it's likely to have parasitic self oscillations, to bigger the cone, the more likely they are (it's also why the *" Genelec ahs a much lower crossover frequency than the 6.5" model"). Of course, you still need to listen (or have access to way more detailed measures than what manufacturers publish) to see if a specific model suffers from this, but, I'd be careful with 2 ways with large midwoofers.
 
Still more off topic, some of Genelec's reputation comes from their higher end models such as the 1038B
 

 
 
 
 
Jan 15, 2012 at 10:10 PM Post #42 of 46


Quote:
Nice atmosphere in Young's room! :) But I live on a different continent hehe.
Really like some of his music too!
And I'm sure those big speakers sound great, but I hope everybody knows that this is not the proper way to place speakers right? :)
Room could use furniture and treatment too ;-p


If you're in NYC, you really have to go - it's an experience.  For those listening in who have no idea what this is, it's a very, very loud single tone.  Well, it's much more complicated than that, but just stay with me, and because of the setup of the speakers, you're effectively immersed in this criss-cross of soundwaves so tight that, once you're acclimated to it (about 10 min) moving around the space, even the slightest movement of your body, even the movement of other bodies in the space, all instantly and obviously change the sound you're hearing.  It's this amazing physicalization/materialization of sound wave phenomena.
 
/End off topic notes.
 
Glad to hear about the D2 - looking forward to your impressions!
 
Jan 24, 2012 at 3:56 PM Post #45 of 46
Hi DeadBeats,
 
Sorry but no more updates on the udc1 from me.
I sent it back and received a refund.
 
It's the most pleasant sounding DAC I've heard so far, but in my opinion not well suited for studio work.
So far I'd say from all the DACs I've heard I'd pick the Lavry DA10, despite all its faults, for studio work, and I'd pick the udc1 if it were only for home listening.
I've pre-ordered the Anedio D2, hoping to prefer it to the Lavry for studio work. Should ship end of February, till then no more DAC talk from me :)
 

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