In search of the mighty Stax

[ServinginEcuador]

So then, what about that person who knows he is going to buy a CDP, but not which model sounds best. He goes from showroom to showroom, even repeating the same process again a time or two before deciding on one unit to buy. Should he feel obligated to buy something from all these people because they shelled out some expense for him to go and listem to their units a time or two? If not, why is this any different? I am going to buy the Stax unit, so if the dealer has one available to send me at no cost, I see it as no different. If you feel that to listen is to buy, then you would have to buy something in each and every store since you went in and auditioned stuff at them all, and then only bought one unit in one store.

I go into a shoe store looking for a comfortable pair of shoes, and leave after trying on 4 pairs, yet buy nothing. Sounds to me like this is the same and I should have bought something since it cost them something according to your logic. I guess you split the hair at whether or not I "intend" to buy something or not. When the end is that I tried on shoes in the stores, but didn't buy them, but "intended" to buy them, that is alright. That is part of their service. But, if I just want to try on shoes to try on shoes, and never intended to buy anything from them, then that's wrong.

 

[springofdark]

I apologize for hitting such a nerve, but this discussion is showing me a different perspective, and I thank you all for explaining the different sides to this story.

I simply have the desire to hear some of the stax products, and if I like what I hear, I might purchase one of their products. However, if I buy, for instance, the omega II, I do not think that it would be worth it to pay the huge markup made by the US distributer. From what I see, the local dealers make a rather thing margin off of the stax products, but the importer makes an enormous profit. The importer makes such a large profit, probably because they are the sole US importer of stax products.

In many ways, I see supporting a business like EIFL as a good thing, as their business brings competition into the market of importing stax products. This may drive prices down, so, eventually, stax products distributed locally in the US won't be marked up so high - as the omega II's are.

If this was the case, I certainly wouldn't mind buying from local dealers. Even if the price was higher than buying the product overseas at a wholesale price, I would understand that distributing the product does incur a cost that has to be made up in the final price of the product.

I could have bought my HD580's at wholesale price too, but decided rather to pay a little extra and buy it from a semi-local shop - because I would be able to audition them before buying.

The US distributor did contact me a short while ago, and it was a pleasure talking to him. He told me that no dealers in north america are willing to stock stax products or demo stax products. He also told me that he has tried to convince them that stocking these units and giving demostrations of them would be good for business, so people like me would get a chance to audition them. However, he also noted that most Stax customers are previous customers, who already know what their products will sound like.

He said that he would not be able to send out a unit to a local dealer be auditioned, because of the risk involved in dealers stocking such units, but I told him that this was no problem, as I could find other means of auditioning stax products. He also mentioned, as expected, that I probably wouldn't be dissapointed with any products I chose to purchase.

In all, his conversation made me consider buying the signature system from him, since it isn't market up quite as high.

Ideally, it would have worked out well to simply pay to audition a product, but this doesn't seem to be an option either.

I suppose, however, I should remember that not all dealers do business the same. At the local shop in Duluth, they usually invite me to come by and listen to new products they're testing, even if I have no interest in buying them. I usually come accross other people who hang out there and just listen to the equipment. Coincidentally, these people might not buy the very speakers they're listening to, but I see them buying many other products sold there - like car audio or cabling.

And that is the importance of athmosphere, I think. If a dealer invites all sorts of people to listen to the equipment on display, they might arouse the interest of people who never thought of buying such products before. In a way, that also helps to remove the barrier between the class of people who buy hi-fi gear and those who don't.

I guess it doesn't hurt to be as truthful as possible. On the phone, the US distributor seemed to really want to let me audition some of the stax products, but really didn't have a way to do so without me buying the product and not being able to return it.

Now that I think about all this, I do have moral boundaries with making purchases. I would like to at least make this clear. I try to buy from companies that treat their workers well. For instace, I usually buy carhart clothing because of their stance on unions. One reason I bought the sennheisers was that they were made in Ireland, where the workers were also paid quite well. (I'm actually a little weary to buy from them now, because I hear they are going overseas too). One aspect of the cd player I liked over others I was looking into, was the fact that it was produced in the UK, where, arguably, the workers were paid a good wage too. Unfortunately, many of the internal parts were made in China - proving how difficult it is to find products that are purely made by people who get good wages. Some people go to the extent to pay a much higher price for hand-made leather boots, while I purchased from red-wing, while they were being produced here in minnesota. However, businesses realize that if their products are clearly higher-quality, people are willing to disregard the treatment of workers - and I'll admit that I've done this on several occasions.

 

[dd3mon]

Buy from EIFL, sell them here if you don't like them. The price difference is so large that you could probably sell them for what you paid for them.

-dd3mon

 

[nately]

Interesting stuff!

Generally, having demo units available for audition is considered a marketing cost more than anything else. It's especially effective in an inefficient market like high-end audio gear, where until recently both information on the products and the products themselves weren't easily available (of course, now we have the internet), and people aren't likely to spend a lot of money without knowing what they're getting.

Here's another way to look at it, and maybe this is how dealers should start looking at things: the audition is really a product itself, and should be treated as such. Whenever a dealer offers auditions, at-home or in-store, there is a marginal cost for the dealer (the value of the product depreciates, and is eventualy sold as a demo, b-stock or whatever). When they offer the audition at no charge, they are in fact giving it away for free, and will suffer a loss every time, because they are "selling" it at no cost. This is a desireable good/service, and here they are giving it away for free! Isn't that just stupid? Not entirely. In return they earn some intangibles, like customer loyalty, and more informed customers. However, they can't take ownership of these intangibles or maintain control of them, really. The customers loyalty may attach to the brand name, rather than the dealer. The more informed customer can take his knowledge and buy the same product elsewhere. To make a vague, generalized assertion, the more efficient the market becomes, the less valuable these intangibles are to the dealer because it is easier to go somewhere else. The nature of the market is changing, getting more efficient. As a result the dealers are going to have to change the way they sell. Not necessarily tomorrow, or next year, or the year after that - and some unforseen phenomenon could change that trend - but the way things are going now... I think dealers are going to have to start charging for auditions (letting customers take store credit for their deposits or something), or limit certain benefits to customers in good standing (I'm sure this already happens in places, like springofdark at the store in Duluth), or take up some other measures.

There are pros and cons [to the consumer] of an inefficient high-end audio market. The obvious downside is that prices are higher (we generally pay prices way higher than cost, fixed costs like R&D and overhead account for a lot of the cost, and DIY gear gets way more bang-for-the-buck). The benefit is that there is more innovation (okay, let's not talk about hype vs. innovation), a greater incentive to put out better differentiated products, and we get other goodies like auditions. Now, an extremely efficient market would be bad (and probably impossible) - imagine a world where every CDP was built to exactly the same specs (probably rather cheaply), and were bought and sold like T-bills or pork bellies. But at the same time, things like lower prices, increased availability... I could live with those, at the cost of, say, free home auditions (that is an amenity I would be willing to pay for).

[Okay, getting a little carried away here...]

In the end, I don't think you can fault customers for behaving rationally, because that is a prerequisite for a market economy. As individuals we have a choice, and can continue to support small, local shops because we like having them around, or can accept the higher level market trends we can't do anything about and take advantage of the things one can get for free during the transition. And that's the dillema we started with and I've said basically nothing. -phew-

[/rambling]

I guess the moral of the story is that logic can only take us so far trying to figure out the values and behavior of many people. In the meantime, springofdark, I hope you find a way to get your hands on some Stax.

 

[nately]

You could just ignore all that, and buy these!!!

 

[tom hankins]

Is that the same stax system that audio cubes sells for about 1200.00 new?(the 4040 system) Or are those different headphones? The amp is the same.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Wow, a complete 4040 system for sale at $975 OBO. That sounds like a decent deal to me. This normally sells for a good $1150 new from Audio Cubes, so that is a deal for someone to try out the Stax sound.

 

[tom hankins]

Doug: I'll make a deal with you. If you get me the 4040 system and I like them I'll buy myself the Omega setup and give you back the 4040. If I don't like them I'll give them back and get something else. What a deal, huh? Deals like this dont come along very often.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by tom hankins Doug: I'll make a deal with you. If you get me the 4040 system and I like them I'll buy myself the Omega setup and give you back the 4040. If I don't like them I'll give them back and get something else. What a deal, huh? Deals like this dont come along very often.

Wow, sounds like you make out, and I fork out? That about sum it up?

Sorry, but I already ordered a pair of Omega IIs and paid for the KGSS. My budget is shot andthe bank account is still realing in agony.

 

[Dwagun]

springofdark

you mentioned Toronto, On here in canada

if you can make the 1 hr flight/4 hour drive to ottawa, distinctive audio has a set of 2020s in the store that were at the Ottawa meet.

That's the bottom of the barrel for stax but the blew my socks off...

they already have them in stock so they you dont have to worry about stringing them along...price wise, they arent going to be super competitive with US dealers let alone straight from Japan due to Canada's import tariffs and other doohickeys that make stuff SOOOO damn expensive up here...

OTOH, that deal for the 4040s is mighty tempting...

Anyhow good luck in your pursuit of stax....

 

[springofdark]

tom hankins: That would be the 4040 Signature system.

nately: In all, its a very good deal, and I thank you for bringing it to my attention!

I'll see what I can do to get together the necessary money - however, I might still want to pair the 404's with a higher-end amplifier like the 717 or KGSS.

With regards to the hifi market and how it normally handles auditions, you have some really interesting points.

You also have to consider, not only how individual customers interact with firms, but how customers interact with the communities they're a part of. The head-fi "community" tries to aliemorate the issue of auditioning new product by organizing meets. At each meet, it is mutally beneficial for members to share their equipment, becasue, in turn, they get to audition new equipment. So, in a way, rather than each customer paying a central firm for auditioning time, customers in a community basically pay each other (in costs of travel and usage of equipment) for the service of trying out new products. At some point, the costs outweigh the benefits, which is why I wouldn't go to a new york city head-fi meet. However, I would seriously consider a Minneapolis head-fi meet.

Now, the question is, is it bad if several people at the head-fi meet don't have equipment to share? At some point, the model will fall apart - if, say, two people bring equipment and fifteen don't bring anything. The real incentive at such a point would be to meet new people, not share audio equipment. However, the model works rather well when a few people might attend just to be introduced to the hobby. This allows the community to grow, without new members, everyone will have heard pretty much all the equipment, and the main incentive for people to meet, would not be for sharing audio equipment.

As the model is currently set up, those who do not share their audio equipment, or don't have equipment to share, still have to pay the costs of travel in order to audition equipment.

In general, I think that people need introductory access (as a friend, community or family member might give you). Otherwise, if too many cost barriers are set up for consumers wanting to enter a new market, the system simply won't work. This is why a business like the hi-fi shop in duluth probably doesn't charge at the door.

However, you are on to something. I've already had my introductory access to headphones, and am looking to upgrade to something quite different. Like I said before, I would be willing to pay for a good audition of some stax equipment. Just as I would be willing to pay to take a class at school.

If a head-fi meet comes to minnesota, and I know a stax unit will be there, I would be perfectly willing to travel, and also share what equipment I have.

I might also be willing to pay a little more to try out a stax unit in a quiet room and really study the differences from what I have now.

Then again, if I have to pay too much, I might not even bother. "Too much" is a subjective term of course. This is probably why the idea hasn't taken off yet. Charging to audition may turn so many people away from looking into such equipment, that the model would collapse. A potential quote: "Anyway, best buy lets me audition all the equipment they have, why would I want to pay to audition stuff at the hifi shop?"

Some day, perhaps, we'll see businesses in larger population centers that carry all sorts of hifi equipment specifically for auditioning purposes, but charge some sort of a rate - per unit, hourly, daily or monthly. I can imagine that only people who want to audition a specific piece of equipment would be willing to pay, however. Though, I might be wrong on this point.

Again, thank you for the insightful post nately.

 

[springofdark]

Dwagun, thank you for the info regarding the ottawa store. Unfortunatley, it would take rougly...20 hours to drive there from Duluth. If its en route during a trip to vermont, I will consider it, however.

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by ServinginEcuador I go into a shoe store looking for a comfortable pair of shoes, and leave after trying on 4 pairs, yet buy nothing. Sounds to me like this is the same and I should have bought something since it cost them something according to your logic. I guess you split the hair at whether or not I "intend" to buy something or not. When the end is that I tried on shoes in the stores, but didn't buy them, but "intended" to buy them, that is alright. That is part of their service. But, if I just want to try on shoes to try on shoes, and never intended to buy anything from them, then that's wrong.

i still disagree. if you go into a shoe store so that you can try on a few pairs of shoes, with full intent of just finding the right size so that you can go on the internet later that evening and order yourself a pair for cheaper, is in my opinion, a scumbag thing to do.

i once had a conversation with a man who had worked as a floor manager for a large chain department store, specifically the jewelry section. he told me that people used to come in and buy jewelry from the store for a weekend party, and then return it the following monday. is this sort of thing not wrong to you?

when you go to a dealer with no intention of buying anything from them, you are robbing them of time and money. the dealer could making money selling to an actual customer, as opposed to just letting freeloaders listen to whatever they want and then buy it later that night on the internet used. people wonder why audio dealers aren't always mister personality when it comes to new customers.

for those who don't know, this is a pretty heated topic in the audiophile world. a few months ago stereophile even posted a full article about it. i guess i definitely side with the dealers on this one. one pays the extra money for local service/support and i think many people seriously take advantage of that.

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by grinch i still disagree. if you go into a shoe store so that you can try on a few pairs of shoes, with full intent of just finding the right size so that you can go on the internet later that evening and order yourself a pair for cheaper, is in my opinion, a scumbag thing to do.

Cool. I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong and I am right, just trying to point out that if I choose to do this that I have that right. Nothing more. I just wanted to present an opposing opinion since you and Mike were very against it and made SoD feel bad about doing what he planned to do. Nothing more.

Quote:

i once had a conversation with a man who had worked as a floor manager for a large chain department store, specifically the jewelry section. he told me that people used to come in and buy jewelry from the store for a weekend party, and then return it the following monday. is this sort of thing not wrong to you?

As I stated in my last post, I do think that it is wrong to do this. If you buy it with the intent of getting the use out of it and then return it, I think this is not a morally correct choice. To buy and try is fair, but not to use and return. I stated the example of the big screen TVs at Fry's, and don't agree with this use. It is legal since it falls within the return policy, but to me it is unethical at the least.

Quote:

when you go to a dealer with no intention of buying anything from them, you are robbing them of time and money. the dealer could making money selling to an actual customer, as opposed to just letting freeloaders listen to whatever they want and then buy it later that night on the internet used. people wonder why audio dealers aren't always mister personality when it comes to new customers.

Then what about my question I posed in my last post. What if you intend to buy a new CDP, but audition various units in 3-4 stores over several occasions. Is intent the only difference? If I plan on buying one unit from one store, am I not robbing the other three of time and money by not being an actual customer? Am I obligated to buy something from all these stores since I robbed them of their time and money by auditioning something? Where do you draw the line? Intent? If so, SoD intended to buy the unit from a Japanese dealer, but wanted to audition one, which leaves him no choice but to go with the "intent" to buy, just not from them. Just like you intend to buy, but look and listen in 3-4 other stores, but only buy from one.

Quote:

for those who don't know, this is a pretty heated topic in the audiophile world. a few months ago stereophile even posted a full article about it. i guess i definitely side with the dealers on this one. one pays the extra money for local service/support and i think many people seriously take advantage of that.

I have stated in my post that I have never bought to use and return. I even feel bad about returning something when I legitimately don't like it. I generally don't return things after buying them unless they are bad, defective, or didn't work as advertised. I merely wanted to oppose the first two posters that made it seems like your a bad person to go into a store and listen to a unit you intend to buy elsewhere.

 

[springofdark]

From a market standpoint, much of this looks like an opportunity for these stores, or new businesses to loan such things to people for a price they're willing to pay. If I wanted to rent a piece of jewlery (however strange such a concept seems to me) I would much prefer to pay a smaller rental fee than the full price and hassel with returning the product.

It's dangerous to turn on customers and treat them like criminals - especially when they tend to have rather simple desires, like, borrowing something for a weekend, or introducing themselves to a new product or market.

I should also note that I purchased the Shure e1c's, and although Shure has a nice return policy, I didn't want to use them and return them (when they would probably require a professional cleaning) because I found out that, IMO, much better headphones are on the market for lower prices. (although their return policy stated that if you are at all unsatisfied with the product, you may return it) I ended up giving them away to my mother - she seems to really like them!

However, I should probably pull out of this conversation, because it seems to be going towards the napster debate, etc. This thread should probably be placed in the member's lounge or something.

---

I'll make one announcement, however.

Does anyone live in Minneapolis and own a stax system? If so, I would be really interested in coming over just to introduce myself to the stax sound. I am willing to pay you for the time, if necessary, and would also be willing to bring my equipment down with me (although, I doubt that anything except my cd player would be too interesting for you). This would also be a great opportunity to get meet a fellow head-fier.