Improvements to soundstage over HD650 and X1?
May 19, 2016 at 2:22 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

sexhero

New Head-Fier
Joined
May 12, 2014
Posts
35
Likes
12
Hello,
 
I can't say I am an audiophile, but I enjoy listening to music to its fullest. When I am 100% enjoying music, I listen to jazz vocal, classic pop with female vocal and some rock. While I'm doing something else like writing a thread here, I listen to rock and some electronic.
 
I currently have HD650 and X1 with Centrance hifi-m8 for my home setup. I am looking for new cans that will have SIGNIFICANTLY improved sound stage under $1000. What do you guy recommend? Preferably I don't want to touch the AMP, but it is an option.
 
I guess the question is with the kinds of music I listen to, I don't know if sound stage matters too much... What genre of music would benefit the most from improved sound stage?
 
Thanks for your help!
 
May 19, 2016 at 9:09 PM Post #2 of 13
Soundstage is all about treble, open air flow, timing, and phase. Since the phase really should not be played with in a headphone because it is drastically altering the sound we are left timing, air flow, and treble. Treble is important because we gather our positional cues from treble rather than bass because treble has much shorter wavelengths making it easier to pick out where the sounds are coming from. Bass has longer wavelengths and this leads to it confusing our brains as to where the sound is coming from. Both the HD650 and X1 are weak in the treble leading to a limited soundstage. Good air flow helps because in closed headphone the driver can sometimes have unwanted resonances, reflections, and damping. The same can happen in any headphone really, but closed headphone are tricky to due well because of the lack of airflow into the aircup compared to open headphones. Another factor to consider is the angle of the drivers as this plays an important roll in coupling the headphone to our ears. Everyone's ears are different and thus have different idea positions / angles for headphone drivers. As the sound enters the ear and takes reflections off of its surfaces the sound changes. If the angles are not ideal the soundstage along with everything else will suffer.
 
You can read a little about phase here:
 
Phase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWB5PSoV2I0
 
One thing I always look out for is when someone claims that a headphone has huge soundstage. Typically this means there is some serious phase issues or incoherence between the two drivers giving the effect of having a large soundstage but in actuality is drastically altering the sound in a bad way.
 
A method also used in audio to increase the soundstage is to play with crossfade which feeds part of one channel into the other. This acts like a reflection in the real world because outside of the headphone sounds bounce off of objects and have different timing to each of our ears. This helps our brains interpret soundstage.
 
You can check out an audio mixing video that shows one example of altering soundstage with mixing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDnsgvYwkIs
 
Some amps and DACs can mess with soundstage because they often have filters which affect the soundstage. There can even be phase differences! You have to be careful when a piece of gear advertises that it makes the soundstage huge because is it really being neutral or introducing flaws into the music. It might be more pleasing to listen to, but for many we like to hear what the artists and engineers had in mind when the first made the track.
 
My guess is headphones that have very large soundstages there is probably going to be easily measured volume differences between the drivers thus simulating a larger soundstage. Headphones that are more closely matched are going to represent the original mix more accurately.
 
Soundstage is tricky because our ears are different, every headphone is different, and even the mixes are different.
 
Have you tried listening to your HD650 without the foam inserts inside the earcups? You can easily remove it. Might help increase the treble.
 
Here is a thread that talks about various headphones and their soundstage:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/593365/the-soundstage-head-club
 
May 21, 2016 at 9:59 PM Post #3 of 13
  My guess is headphones that have very large soundstages there is probably going to be easily measured volume differences between the drivers thus simulating a larger soundstage. Headphones that are more closely matched are going to represent the original mix more accurately.

Not sure if I'm undestanding your post.
I've had an AKG K702 with almost perfect driver matching, among the best I've seen and its soundstage was very good.
Some early Beyerdynamic T1 v1 had very poor driver matching and their soundstage was pretty poor.
 
Most of the time, good driver matching is associated with good soundstage and focus.
 
Frequency response, openness, clarity and distance from the drivers are key for soundstage.
But also the recording and our perception.
 
I would recommend the AKG K702 for soundstage.
Sennheiser HD800 is a very good pick as well, but much more expensive.
 
May 22, 2016 at 2:09 AM Post #4 of 13
  Not sure if I'm undestanding your post.
I've had an AKG K702 with almost perfect driver matching, among the best I've seen and its soundstage was very good.
Some early Beyerdynamic T1 v1 had very poor driver matching and their soundstage was pretty poor.
 
Most of the time, good driver matching is associated with good soundstage and focus.
 
Frequency response, openness, clarity and distance from the drivers are key for soundstage.
But also the recording and our perception.
 
I would recommend the AKG K702 for soundstage.
Sennheiser HD800 is a very good pick as well, but much more expensive.

Is Massdop K7XX same as K702? Based on its price, it seems like a good buy.
 
I heard HD800 is not forgiving at all and is almost too analytical.. so I'm hesitated.
 
May 22, 2016 at 2:26 AM Post #5 of 13
  Is Massdop K7XX same as K702? Based on its price, it seems like a good buy.
 
I heard HD800 is not forgiving at all and is almost too analytical.. so I'm hesitated.


No, K7XX is a significantly warmer version with smaller soundstage.
 
And yes, HD800 is extremely analytical.
 
May 22, 2016 at 3:34 AM Post #7 of 13
  Thanks. Any thoughts on how K702 compares to DT990 on soundstage? 

 
DT990's soundstage feels very open but it's not very layered.
K702's soundstage is more layered and imaging is more precise.
 
When you hear a properly recorded orchestra for instance, the sound of the violins takes certain volume in space.
This is logical since they were (as sources) distrubuted in space and even if they are all coming out from the left channel the information of their placement is still there on the recording.
I had them both side by side sometime in the past and the AKG was much better at resolving this fine detail. The sense of the violins being spread around the space emiting sound from slightly different locations in space.
 
May 22, 2016 at 4:01 AM Post #8 of 13
   
DT990's soundstage feels very open but it's not very layered.
K702's soundstage is more layered and imaging is more precise.
 
When you hear a properly recorded orchestra for instance, the sound of the violins takes certain volume in space.
This is logical since they were (as sources) distrubuted in space and even if they are all coming out from the left channel the information of their placement is still there on the recording.
I had them both side by side sometime in the past and the AKG was much better at resolving this fine detail. The sense of the violins being spread around the space emiting sound from slightly different locations in space.

Based on your recommendation and what I've read, I think I'll go with AKG K712 which is supposed to have a larger soundstage than K702. Also they can be had for much less than the MSRP. Before I pull the trigger, does anyone have any input on more costly cans such as T1 and HE560? They are much more expensive, but I'm willing to cut down on my grocery expenses if they offer better soundstage. I guess they would sound "better" overall based on the price tag, but I am only interested in sound stage. 
 
May 22, 2016 at 4:04 AM Post #9 of 13
  Soundstage is all about treble, open air flow, timing, and phase. Since the phase really should not be played with in a headphone because it is drastically altering the sound we are left timing, air flow, and treble. Treble is important because we gather our positional cues from treble rather than bass because treble has much shorter wavelengths making it easier to pick out where the sounds are coming from. Bass has longer wavelengths and this leads to it confusing our brains as to where the sound is coming from. Both the HD650 and X1 are weak in the treble leading to a limited soundstage. Good air flow helps because in closed headphone the driver can sometimes have unwanted resonances, reflections, and damping. The same can happen in any headphone really, but closed headphone are tricky to due well because of the lack of airflow into the aircup compared to open headphones. Another factor to consider is the angle of the drivers as this plays an important roll in coupling the headphone to our ears. Everyone's ears are different and thus have different idea positions / angles for headphone drivers. As the sound enters the ear and takes reflections off of its surfaces the sound changes. If the angles are not ideal the soundstage along with everything else will suffer.
 
You can read a little about phase here:
 
Phase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWB5PSoV2I0
 
One thing I always look out for is when someone claims that a headphone has huge soundstage. Typically this means there is some serious phase issues or incoherence between the two drivers giving the effect of having a large soundstage but in actuality is drastically altering the sound in a bad way.
 
A method also used in audio to increase the soundstage is to play with crossfade which feeds part of one channel into the other. This acts like a reflection in the real world because outside of the headphone sounds bounce off of objects and have different timing to each of our ears. This helps our brains interpret soundstage.
 
You can check out an audio mixing video that shows one example of altering soundstage with mixing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDnsgvYwkIs
 
Some amps and DACs can mess with soundstage because they often have filters which affect the soundstage. There can even be phase differences! You have to be careful when a piece of gear advertises that it makes the soundstage huge because is it really being neutral or introducing flaws into the music. It might be more pleasing to listen to, but for many we like to hear what the artists and engineers had in mind when the first made the track.
 
My guess is headphones that have very large soundstages there is probably going to be easily measured volume differences between the drivers thus simulating a larger soundstage. Headphones that are more closely matched are going to represent the original mix more accurately.
 
Soundstage is tricky because our ears are different, every headphone is different, and even the mixes are different.
 
Have you tried listening to your HD650 without the foam inserts inside the earcups? You can easily remove it. Might help increase the treble.
 
Here is a thread that talks about various headphones and their soundstage:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/593365/the-soundstage-head-club

Thanks, I read your review on K712. Would you say that K712 has improved sound stage over K702?
 
May 22, 2016 at 6:48 AM Post #10 of 13
  Based on your recommendation and what I've read, I think I'll go with AKG K712 which is supposed to have a larger soundstage than K702. Also they can be had for much less than the MSRP. Before I pull the trigger, does anyone have any input on more costly cans such as T1 and HE560? They are much more expensive, but I'm willing to cut down on my grocery expenses if they offer better soundstage. I guess they would sound "better" overall based on the price tag, but I am only interested in sound stage. 


K712 has more bass but smaller soundstage than K702.
K702 is a studio reference headphone while K712 is a more 'cinematic' / more fun sounding / less dry version of the same headphone. Still nice stage anyway.
 
HE-560 is a very nice headphone but soundstage size is not one of its bigger strenghts.
T1 v1 provides a big soundstage, almost as big as K702 with improved focus and transparency.
 
May 22, 2016 at 3:17 PM Post #11 of 13
I no longer have the K702 so I cannot comment on how its soundstage compares to the K712, but I suspect the K712 might be less wide because of the added bass.
 
May 23, 2016 at 1:44 AM Post #12 of 13
 
K712 has more bass but smaller soundstage than K702.
K702 is a studio reference headphone while K712 is a more 'cinematic' / more fun sounding / less dry version of the same headphone. Still nice stage anyway.
 
HE-560 is a very nice headphone but soundstage size is not one of its bigger strenghts.
T1 v1 provides a big soundstage, almost as big as K702 with improved focus and transparency.

Thanks for the advice. From what I read, T1 v2 has more bass. Are you saying because of this, T1 v1 has a bigger soundstage? Would you recommended v1 over v2 even if you consider other things overall? 
 
May 23, 2016 at 3:24 AM Post #13 of 13
  Thanks for the advice. From what I read, T1 v2 has more bass. Are you saying because of this, T1 v1 has a bigger soundstage? Would you recommended v1 over v2 even if you consider other things overall? 


Most audiophile people I know prefer T1 v1 over T1 v2
T1 v2 seems to be more consumer friendly
 
Both should provide similar soundstage in the big scheme of things
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top