I'm new to Head-Fi; I need your help in finding the right speakers for my needs, some advise on and dac/amp-solution too.

[Fruchtfliege]

Hi folks,
 
I've been lurking around the forums for a while now and I really apperciate the great posts many of you make. They have helped me alot in finding the right pair of headphones for me. But now I need your help in finding some speakers that will fullfill my needs. I think I will list below the gear I already have or plan to purchase, aswell as what and how I like to listen to music (etc). 
 

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 Gear I have or plan to purchase:
 

1. ATH M50X
2. AKG K712 Pro
3. Jaybird X2
4. Schiit Fulla
5. A pair of studio monitors, or HiFi speakers (planned, need your help on this)
6. Creative Sound Blaster X7 (planned, might need some advise on this too)

 
My listening enviroment:
 

I am moving into a new student apartment by the end of the month and want to set up things the right way. I want good quality gear, but with a reasonable price/value ratio.
 
I want to have a stationary DAC/Amp-solution on my work desk which will power both my headphones and a pair of speakers. I would also like to include easy iPhone (or Android) connectivity to the DAC/Amp for when friends come around, etc. Similarly, good quality bluetooth-streaming capabilities would be welcomed, because I want to be able to sit on my bed/couch and browse the web/watch a movie/listen to music and play the sound through big speakers, without having to plug in any cables. I don't need the absolute best quailty audio for general consumption. And I still have the option of plugging my AKGs into my Fulla.
 
Entertainment:
 
I like to watch alot of movies and TV-shows, so some good speakers would be really welcomend to make the experience better. I don't want to always have to wear my headphones and be restrained by the cable, especially as I can't lay on my side in bed with them. I also really like listening to music. It has always been a big part of my life and I almost never go anywhere without some headphone with me. I'm generally open to any genre and like to hear new stuff, but of course I have certain genres and artists I like to listen to more often. I always find it really tricky to say what music I specifically like, so I'll just give you a list:
 

1. Electronic/house oriented music. Generally remixes as they can be found on hypem.com, and stuff like Deadmau5, Overwerk, Kygo, ZHU, Röyksopp, Daft Punk and Porter Robinson. Not too aggressive stuff.
2. Contemporary piano, like Ludovico Einaudi, Yann Tiersen, Rob Costlow and Dustin O'Halloran.
3. Not sure what you call this, pop maybe. Artists like The Fray, Coeur de Pirate, Coldplay, Sia, Shakira, James Blunt and Alt-J.
4. Folk-ish? Like Mumford&Sons, Fleet Foxes, Simon&Garfunkel, Angus&Julia Stone, Iron&Wine, Ray LaMontagne, Jack Johnson and James Vincent McMorrow. And maybe some more mellow singer/songwriter stuff (think Cinematic Orchestra - To Build A Home or Patrick Watson - The Great Escape)
5. Soundtracks. All of them. Really love Hans Zimmer.
6. Some Rock, like Rise Against, Angels&Airwaves, Blink 182, Bloodhound Gang, AC/DC.
7. Little Hip-Hop, more slow stuff, like Drake.
8. And maybe some exceptions like Nightwith and Scala&Kolacny Brothers.

 
And other artists of all genres here and there. But the emphasis is probably on House, Piano, Folk/Indie Pop and Soundtracks.
 
Work:
 
I'm learning the piano and play with a Midi-Keyboard through Ableton Live, where I also do a bit of composing (sort of piano/house overlap, like this song by Kygo https://soundcloud.com/kygo/piano-jam-3). Not all that much yet, but might get more. I'm planning on getting the Ableton Push 2 sometime this year. Also some light video-editing. And occasionally some games, I like smaller, immersive Indie titles, but also play games like Modern Warfare 2, Cities Ckylines, The Binding Of Isaac, Terraria, Civ V and Kerbal Space Programm at times.
 
The apartment will be like 18m².

 
The speakers:
 
And here is the problem: I'm not sure if a pair of studio monitors will be enough, or right for me. I think they would be great for work on the desktop and I also like a more accurate sound reproduction. I was specifically looking at the Yamaha HS7s. But I just don't know if they are the right size for me or if there are better alternatives at equal price for my music taste. And as I said I would also like to use those speakers for general listening in my room, without me sitting right in front of them. I know that monitors are pretty directional. What are your thought on this? Are there some studio monitors more suitable for general listening across a small-ish room, or should I consider getting some HiFi-speaker instead, or a combination of both? Thank you for your help!
 
The DAC/Amp:
 
More one a side note: do you think that I have found the right DAC/Amp-solution with the Sound Blaster X7 for my needs? The user earfonia posted an incredibly well done review of them here http://www.head-fi.org/t/756102/creative-sound-blaster-x7-detailed-review-impressions. From the looks of it they offer some really rather good audio quality for their price. I was thinking that would be more than sufficient for me, and it comes with out-lines for passive and active speakers, aswell as bluetooth AptX-streaming. The speakers you might recomment to me here could influence this possible purchase, as the limited version of the X7 has a much improved active audio-out, in case I'll need it.
Also, if someone has some knowledge about op-amps, do you think I should try out others for the X7, as they are swappable, for driving my K712s? They have a more analytical sound signature, I was thinking a tad warmer amp might be beneficial.
I was eyeballing the Shiit Magni and Modi 2 uber stack before stumbling across the X7s. But the more features in a all-in-one pack looked better to me. I also don't know if I can apperciate the better quality of the Shiit over the X7 with my AKGs. But yeah, that might be an alternative. I could still buy an additional audio-bluetooth-reciever.
 
 
I want to thank everyone who replies in a helpful way in advance. Thank you!
 
 
 
~ Jo

 

[fishyee]

Hi Jo, let me first commend you on your thorough explanation of your needs.  I think your attention to detail will serve you well in this hobby. Just to be sure ... what is your budget?
 
Table the X7 and Yamaha for now.  They are decent but there is better out there for the price and depending on your answers, they may not be your best options.  The impression I get from your music and your love for the piano suggest you need decent bass and natural timbre.  Could you tell us what kind of sound signature you like?  For example, I prefer a slight bass tilt with fast punchy bass, liquid mids, and smooth, non-sibilant highs.  
 
Also, what does your TV/movie setup look like?  Do you need HDMI support?
 
I can help you address all your equipment needs if you can first answer those questions.  

 

[Fruchtfliege]

The X7 and HS7 pretty much are the budget. I could stretch it to 800 Euros for the DAC/Amp and speakers. I'm a student, and not a rich one
 
So far I've sticked to headphones with a rather flat and neutral freq. response, since I listen to all kinds of genres and didn't want to have a pair that excells at one genre I like, while making others less enjoyable. But yes, the music I would most likely actively listen to, meaning laying back and just concentrating on that, would be house, piano and soundtracks (like Deadmau5, Ludovico Einaudi and Hans Zimmer). But I am not an audiophile, I don't look for ever better detail and perfection. I am more looking for great music, not necessarily sound (if that makes any sense). That of course doesn't mean that I cannot apperciate it (I'm sure that I will get some Audeze or similar at some point, but that will be quite some years from now). I'm happy with my AKGs and if anything the speakers should go along the k712's sound signature. 
And I think I would rather activly listen to an album trough good headphones than speakers. I want some to be able to work and play on the PC (or Laptop) without beeing constrained to my headphones, and also for everyday listening, while learnin, drawing, reading or just chilling. So far I did that through my laptop's internal speakers (which are rather good for a laptop) and it was alright. But I do notice alot more detail when listening through headphones im comparison.
My biggest "don't-know" is if studio monitors will be suitable to fill my room with music apart from sitting right infront of them. I will try some out before buying them, there is this large music store in germany, Thomann, where I'm sure I could test some speakers out for a few days before purchasing them. And I don't know if active or passive speaker would suit me better, because that will influence what DAC to get.
 
I don't have a TV and don't really plan on getting one anytime soon. I rarely watch TV, almost everything I watch is on the Internet. I watch content on my laptop and my desktop monitor (32" Samsung ultrawide). It's connected through Thunderbolt-to-DP.
 
I hope that helps clear things up.

 

[techboy]

Google AVI DM5 and head over to HDDAudio.net to learn more about them. They are very close to your budget.
 
If you want to know more, you can PM me.

 

[Fruchtfliege]

They look good, but 700 pounds for one speaker is not in my budget.

 

[techboy]

They look good, but 700 pounds for one speaker is not in my budget.

They're £700 for a pair. That is for two of them. Not for one!

 

[Fruchtfliege]

Hm, that makes sense. But it's still close to 900 Euros and I need an DAC/Amp aswell. Do you know of any less expensive options?

 

[techboy]

Hm, that makes sense. But it's still close to 900 Euros and I need an DAC/Amp aswell. Do you know of any less expensive options?

It punches well well well above its weight.

If you don't have that kind of budget, consider Aktimate Mini+ and Aktimate Blue. (Aktimates are not active. But powered passive. Don't need a separate amp). They are very good. Not in the same class as AVIs though.

I suggest you read more on HDDAudio.

Get an Airport Express with the AVIs.

If you want a separate headphone amp/DAC get a Fiio or O2/ODAC or something that is good for the buck. Trust me. Read more on the HDD forum.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Hm, that makes sense. But it's still close to 900 Euros and I need an DAC/Amp as well. Do you know of any less expensive options?

 
For a DAC
Asus Xonar DX or D1 sound card (used is fine, $50-$60 USD)
Also check out the Hifimediy DACs, get something for around $65 USD.
http://hifimediy.com/DACs/ready-made-dacs?sort=p.price&order=ASC&limit=100
 
For a headphone amplifier, with a separate output for studio monitors
Bravo Ocean tube (hybrid) headphone amplifier ($120 USD)
 
This should leave you with a good amount of your audio budget for studio monitors.
 
Or if your looking for a good value in studio monitors, check out the M-Audio BX5 D2 studio monitors.
Get a pair, with stands, for 229.Euros.
It seems they are being closed out, so the price is low.
http://www.thomann.de/gb/m_audio_bx5_d2stand_bundle.htm
 
I use Monoprice 5" studio monitors, which are based on the older version, the BX5a.

 

[fishyee]

Ok Jo.  Thanks for the additional info.  Very helpful.
 
If you like musical over analytical, you may consider selling the 712s for the Oppo PM3 or Focal Spirit One S.  Easier to drive too and plays well from an iphone, etc.  Just throwing it out there ...
 
Back on topic.  Starting with the DAC:
1.  The X7 has virtual Dolby processing that you may want for your headphone movie listening.  Ask some of the guys in the gaming forum.  The X7 is quite full-featured for the price so I could see you being very happy with it as your long term DAC.  It does have respectable guts inside.
2.  If you don't need Dolby processing or Bluetooth, you have many options that can save you a few bucks.
    A. As stated by PurpleAngel, soundcards can save you money and still sound excellent.  Note that if you upgrade your computer in the future, you may be hunting for a DAC again though.
    B. The Creative G5 can give you X7 performance for about 1/2 the price.  You will need a special 1/4 TRS to 2xRCA (preferably shielded) cable to connect to your studio monitors' RCA inputs.
    C. The Yulong U200 Wifi is superior to the X7 on paper and also has Wifi connectivity.  Yulong designs his stuff towards the musical side.  Great designer, good chips, Class A amp, Wifi versatility.  Read this - http://www.head-fi.org/products/yulong-audio-u200-dsd-32bit-384khz-dac-headphone-amplifier/reviews/14052
    D. Other potential DACs to consider - JDS Labs Element, AudioTrak Dr Dac 3, Teac UD301.
 
On to the passive speaker options:
3.  If you buy the X7, you can also go with passive speakers and drive them with the X7's internal stereo amp (25w @ 8ohms).  Unfortunately, passive speakers in your budget range cannot compete with true studio monitors for sound quality, bass impact, neutral presentation, and loudness.  I will not drown you with the details but see the links if you are interested.
    A.  http://www.adam-audio.com/files/downloads/Active_vs_passive.pdf
    B.  http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/HW/ActiveSpeakers.htm
    C.  http://atcloudspeakers.co.uk/technology/active-amplification/
    B.  If you do go passive, you will need very efficient speakers ~ 90+ db/w/m.  If they fit, check out the Tekton Mini Lore. They rock!  http://www.tektondesign.com/loremonitors.html
 
Now to studio monitors:
4.  You can use the X7 with studio monitors also.  Monitors, although mostly used in nearfield/on-the-desk setups, can produce ear bleeding loudness.  Check out their RMS and peak DB sound pressure levels.  Anything about 105 db peak will be plenty for your place.  Some advice for you if I may ... you are young ... save those ears from loud music for a lifetime of enjoyment.
    A.  Read this to check out loudness in your room - http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
5.  The Yamaha HS7 are good.  Pro audio manufacturers have a "house" sound much like headphone manufacturers so it is best to listen to many brands before you buy.  Don't buy monitors until you go to Thomann!  They can set up a shoot-out for you with your music.  
    A.  For the shootout, see if you can get these monitors into the same room - Yamaha HS7, Presonus E66, Adam F7, Focal Alpha50, JBL LSR305.
    B.  Bring your own test music.
    C.  Read this before you go - http://www-media-presonus.netdna-ssl.com/downloads/products/pdf/How_To_Get_The_Most_Out_Of_Your_Studio_Monitors.pdf
    D.  Ideally, buy your DAC first and bring it along also.
    E.  Listen to one level up to see if you can hear the difference.  One level up monitors are Neumann KH120, Focal CMS 65, Genelec M040.  
 
If it was my choice at your budget:  Yulong U200 Wifi and Presonus E66.  
    - http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/review_presonus_eris_e66_studio_monitors/
    - http://idmmag.com/tech-corner/tech-reviews/presonus-e66-eris-mtm-reviewed/
 
Happy auditioning and good luck!

 

[fishyee]

I forgot. If you get Christmas or birthday money, drop it on Dirac Live software for the final touch. It will easily handle the other big problem in any setup, which is the room acoustics.

http://www.dirac.com/online-store/

 

[Fruchtfliege]

Thank you for your reply, fishyee. And you too PurpleAngel!
 
On the k712s: I think I'll stick with them for now. I'll try not to get into purchasing headphones fitting for a certain genre, because before I know it I might have a dozen pairs laying around... I think I should rather put a little aside each month and go straight to end-game with some Audezes in the future. I can certainly get the appeal of ever looking for new, different and better equipment, but that seems to be a never ending story. But who knows, I might be sitting on my throne made of amps and dacs in a few years, laughing hysterially at this comment...
 
On the DAC side, the X7 seems to be the one for now. I know that I can get better audio quality for the same money if I look elsewhere, but it really looks like a great looking, very compact all-in-one solution, that goes beyond offering just a great music experience. And I like the convenience of bluetooth, not just for me but for friends coming around and sharing their music without the need of a dedicated app. And as you said, and as earfonia review showed, it does have quite respectable internals. I will however try a few different op-amps out, I like that I can swap them and go for a more warm sound, balancing the more analytical signature of the AKG to fit my general musical taste better.. 
 
And thanks for all the reading-material, really informative! What I took from it is that active monitors can fit my need rather well, but I should go out and give all the options a good listen before buying them. So I'll wait for the X7 to arrive and take them with me to the music store. And I also like the AVI DM5s that techboy mentioned, while out of budget for now, they look like something to keep in the back of my head. I will be living in a student apartment for at least the next 7 years until I have finished Uni, so a pair great sounding speakers for their small size seem like a good thing to save up for. Have you had any experience with them?
 
And I like the Dirac Live software you mentioned. I have never heard of that before, but I know that a good accustical treatment for a room can be just as important as a better pair of speakers. And since I live in a rather small apartment, installing big soundtraps and whatnot could end up beeing a bit claustrophobic. So a software based treatment looks like just the thing I want!
I also have an eye for good design and really enjoy it, includind interior design. I like my room to be put together nicely and some big boxes hanging from my wall might spoil that just a tad...
 
On the hearing-safety thing: I do have a pair of etymotic hearing protection buds, which I mostly use at work, I'm a paramedic. And I do keep an eye on, or, well, an ear on the volume I listen to. That's one of the reasons I think better speakers are great, because you won't have to turn them up as loud to be able to hear enough detail. Something one might do with cheap speakers, just to be able to enjoy the music.
 
 
Well, I really apperciate all of your imput, you guys make this forum a great place to be. I'll try to remember posting the final speakers I went for here, once I've decided on a pair.
 
Have a nice day!
 
 
~Jo
 
 
 

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Edit: Thank you for mentioning good sound cards, but I only use a MacBook 

 

 

[fishyee]

The LCD-2s are my favorite. Well worth the wait.

You are in luck. Massdrop has a sale on the X7 for a limited time.
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/creative-sound-blaster-x7-amp-dac-combo

Dirac is eye opening! Not possible without computer audio of today. My $15K system years ago can't touch even my modest desktop system today thanks to Dirac and active speakers.

Let us know what you end up with and enjoy your new toys.

 

[Fruchtfliege]

I know about the drop, I get almost daily updates from Massdrop. And I always think, hmm that looks nice, I kinda want that....  Either way, with shipping and import taxes I won't save a bit. But it's on sale for 350 Euros in Germany.
 
Will do!

 

[PurpleAngel]

  I know about the drop, I get almost daily updates from Massdrop. And I always think, hmm that looks nice, I kinda want that....  Either way, with shipping and import taxes I won't save a bit. But it's on sale for 350 Euros in Germany.
 

 
If you get studio monitors, which already come with with up to two amplifiers built into each unit, you have no need for the speaker amplifier(s) built into the CL X7.
But you could get a Hifimediy DAC, about 54 Euros (7 Euros shipping) and a Bravo Ocean headphone amplifier (110 Euros), so total around 171 Euros.
That would leave around an extra 180 Euros that you could spend towards studio monitors, instead of spending 350 Euros for the CL X7.
You said you like the Bluetooth opinion of the X7, I'm guessing you could find a USB Bluetooth adapter (for a computer) for under $15 Euros.
 
Maybe you should get the studio monitors first, then see how much of your budget you have leftover for buying other stuff.