[VIrak]

Hi everybody!

I'm new to the higher-end headphone thing (I'm using Portapros for my Zen Micro, and Technics RP-DJ1210's for DJ'ing), but I just splurged on Stax SR-Lambda Signatures and a SRD-7SBmk2. $200 for the set looked like a very good deal to me, so I took the chance. I did not have the chance to audition them. So, while I'm waiting for them to arrive in the mail, what can I expect? Pros and cons?

I'll be driving them with an Accuphase E-302, will it will be an OK match?
Source will be a modded Technics SL-1200Mk2 with an SME 3009/S2 arm.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIrak /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi everybody! I'm new to the higher-end headphone thing (I'm using Portapros for my Zen Micro, and Technics RP-DJ1210's for DJ'ing), but I just splurged on Stax SR-Lambda Signatures and a SRD-7SBmk2. $200 for the set looked like a very good deal to me, so I took the chance. I did not have the chance to audition them. So, while I'm waiting for them to arrive in the mail, what can I expect? Pros and cons? I'll be driving them with an Accuphase E-302, will it will be an OK match? Source will be a modded Technics SL-1200Mk2 with an SME 3009/S2 arm.

Bass/midbass will be a problem. Low, tight bass is always a problem for electrostats and one of the bigger weaknesses of the stax headphone. It never has the weight a dynamic system has in the lower regions. Other then that, it's a very good headphone with plenty of air, detail, but not much musicality, another weakness of most electrostats, in my opinion. Dynamic system have more drive, weight and musicallity. Electrostats can have more detail, more accurate and clean sound, but can sound a bit dry and dull.

A tube system might help a bit in that respect though.

 

[Duggeh]

To counterpoint:

Low bass is the one place where I absolutely prefer a planar headphone to a dynamic one. There's none of the bad control and boominess. As for the lack of weight in the bass, certainly true of some old 'stats like the ESP9, or technically difficult headphones like the AMT, but there's a good deal of weight to the tone in a lambda and there's gobloads of weight that any dynamic would envy in the H2 and SR-007.

As for musicality, that's a purely subjective matter, determinant on your preferences sonically. Any headphone you don't like isn't musical.


You got a good price on that Signature system. Lambda sigs are sometimes going for stupid amounts of money these days. I've seen $500 and up for just the headphone. I'm sure that you'll enjoy them.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif To counterpoint: Low bass is the one place where I absolutely prefer a planar headphone to a dynamic one. There's none of the bad control and boominess. As for the lack of weight in the bass, certainly true of some old 'stats like the ESP9, or technically difficult headphones like the AMT, but there's a good deal of weight to the tone in a lambda and there's gobloads of weight that any dynamic would envy in the H2 and SR-007. As for musicality, that's a purely subjective matter, determinant on your preferences sonically. Any headphone you don't like isn't musical. You got a good price on that Signature system. Lambda sigs are sometimes going for stupid amounts of money these days. I've seen $500 and up for just the headphone. I'm sure that you'll enjoy them.

Nonsense, if you have a good amp, it will control the bass, my bass is very tight, low and full bodied. A bass no electrostat would be capable of producing. Only bad amps have flubby bass. I owned a high end stax system with tubes, so i know what i am talking about. The lambda never produced such a bass, not even after an expensive mod of the tube stax amp.

I switched to dynamic because of the bass problems and the lack of musicallity and drive. Compared to a tube/dynamic setup, a stax electrostat will always sound thin and dull.

Op has to try for himself and see what he likes, the best dynamic speakers however beat any elektrostatic system in terms of weight/body, drive and musicallity.

 

[jcn3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nonsense, if you have a good amp, it will control the bass, my bass is very tight, low and full bodied. A bass no electrostat would be capable of producing. Only bad amps have flubby bass. I owned a high end stax system with tubes, so i know what i am talking about. The lambda never produced such a bass, not even after an expensive mod of the tube stax amp. I switched to dynamic because of the bass problems and the lack of musicallity and drive. Compared to a tube/dynamic setup, a stax electrostat will always sound thin and dull. Op has to try for himself and see what he likes, the best dynamic speakers however beat any elektrostatic system in terms of weight/body, drive and musicallity.

i have no doubt that that is your experience with dynamic and electrostatic headphones, but i don't think its fair to make such sweeping generalizations.

if i compare my former set-up (hd600s, sp ppx3 slam) with my current stax set-up, they both have their strengths, but the nod goes to my stax set-up.

my dynamic set-up definitely had tighter bass. but that is probably the only area that the dynamics win. in terms of air, soundstage, timbre, and detail, the stax wins hands-down. comparing those two set-ups, i would consider the stax more musical.

both set-up cost approximately the same ($1200) so it's a reasonable comparison. i haven't had a chance to compare higher end systems.

 

[spritzer]

The Lambdas have too much bass not too little and saying that they aren't musical is insanity defined.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VIrak /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hi everybody! I'm new to the higher-end headphone thing (I'm using Portapros for my Zen Micro, and Technics RP-DJ1210's for DJ'ing), but I just splurged on Stax SR-Lambda Signatures and a SRD-7SBmk2. $200 for the set looked like a very good deal to me, so I took the chance. I did not have the chance to audition them. So, while I'm waiting for them to arrive in the mail, what can I expect? Pros and cons? I'll be driving them with an Accuphase E-302, will it will be an OK match? Source will be a modded Technics SL-1200Mk2 with an SME 3009/S2 arm.

The Signature is a very nice headphone, cetainly one of the best ever made, but it does have some issues. Lack of bass certainly isn't one of them but there is a slight midbass hump and the highs can be a little etched. Neither is very apparent except in direct comparison to other electrostatics and they will be much better then any dynamic under 1k$.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcn3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif i have no doubt that that is your experience with dynamic and electrostatic headphones, but i don't think its fair to make such sweeping generalizations. if i compare my former set-up (hd600s, sp ppx3 slam) with my current stax set-up, they both have their strengths, but the nod goes to my stax set-up. my dynamic set-up definitely had tighter bass. but that is probably the only area that the dynamics win. in terms of air, soundstage, timbre, and detail, the stax wins hands-down. comparing those two set-ups, i would consider the stax more musical. both set-up cost approximately the same ($1200) so it's a reasonable comparison. i haven't had a chance to compare higher end systems.

I have; i spend allready about 25 years of listening, also electrostatic speaker systems and compared to the best dynamic setups, wich can be as detailed as elektrostats, they lack in those departments as i described.

I am talking serious money here though. Also my dynamic setup is better in alot of respects then the high end stax setup was.

Concerning detail, elektrostats will wow alot of people, but if you listen carefully, you'll notice the weaknesses.

Doesn't mean you can't like the lambda or any elektrostatic system. That is your preference. I am just telling my extensive experience between the two systems.

Also alot of high end systems use hybrid constructions, like elektrostats for treble and mids, and dynamic speakers for the lower end! or, only elektrostats for high treble, dynamic for mids and dynamic for low end.

Really good elektrostats that can do it all are very rare! All the higher end systems are mainly dynamic or hybrid!

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Lambdas have too much bass not too little and saying that they aren't musical is insanity defined. The Signature is a very nice headphone, cetainly one of the best ever made, but it does have some issues. Lack of bass certainly isn't one of them but there is a slight midbass hump and the highs can be a little etched. Neither is very apparent except in direct comparison to other electrostatics and they will be much better then any dynamic under 1k$.

You heard my dynamic system did you?! Compared to that, the stax high end system seriously lacked in that departement, also the midbass hump was very apperent. Even after extensive modding the stax tube amp! Wich cost a lot of money!

Good low end bass, is always a weakness of any elektrostatic system, compared to dynamic systems.


I never noticed the edgyness you're talking about, so our systems must have been quite different!

My stax setup never had any real prat, drive, and musicallity at all. It sounded dull, lifeless and thin! Even despite the tube amp!

So, in the end OP might end up liking dynamic cans better after all.

I just wanna adress the problems he could encounter. It's up to him if he likes it or not.

After all, he's asking about the pro's and cons! And it has cons.

 

[spritzer]

What amp did you use? All the problem you are describing are the result of a bad amp that didn't have the power to push the phones.

All hybrid speakers are a bad idea and sound like crap. Innersound and ML are hardly the pinnacle of electrostatic driver design though they think so them selfs. Think Sound Lab and a wall of 20Hz sound. If you want to listen to a euphonic mess then dynamics are the way to go but if you want the truth then a properly driven electrostatic is the only way to go.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif What amp did you use? All the problem you are describing are the result of a bad amp that didn't have the power to push the phones. All hybrid speakers are a bad idea and sound like crap. Innersound and ML are hardly the pinnacle of electrostatic driver design though they think so them selfs. Think Sound Lab and a wall of 20Hz sound. If you want to listen to a euphonic mess then dynamics are the way to go but if you want the truth then a properly driven electrostatic is the only way to go.

Stax' own tube amp, modded, and i used the pro outputs! Had the lambda pro's!Maybe i had the lambda's first incarnation, since there's a lambda pro 2 version of it. The first one lacked considderably!

But it is general known now that the stax amps are far from the best amps to use with their headphones.

Fact is that my modded dynamic setup is better in alot respects in comparison to my very expensive stax setup. I switched to dynamic setup for that reason and am very satisfied now, more so then i was with the stax.

Sorry, don't get me wrong, but you seriously never heard any well driven dynamic setup. It is as good as any elektrostat and then some; more prat, drive and especially body!

The balance is about 60/40 for dynamic setups and most, if not all high end recensents prefer dynamic setups in the high end region.

This is a link to siltech's new state of the art high end loudspeaker, even nasa helped develop it!

http://www.hifi.nl/nieuws/39021/Silt...idspreker.html

Costing 75.000 euro's a pair and you think it's crap before hand?!

I heard plenty of speakers in that pricerange and they beat the crap out of elektrostats.

Also elektrostats not well placed sound really crap! Placing IS very important with elektrostats and need plenty of room!

Under 8000-10.000 dollars/euro's a pair you'll never find any really good elektrostat! I considder quad elektrostats as the better ones and the really good ones of that brand start at 8000 euro's a pair, the better ones are even more expensive!

 

[jcn3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have; i spend allready about 25 years of listening, also electrostatic speaker systems and compared to the best dynamic setups, wich can be as detailed as elektrostats, they lack in those departments as i described. I am talking serious money here though. Also my dynamic setup is better in alot of respects then the high end stax setup was. Concerning detail, elektrostats will wow alot of people, but if you listen carefully, you'll notice the weaknesses. Doesn't mean you can't like the lambda or any elektrostatic system. That is your preference. I am just telling my extensive experience between the two systems. Also alot of high end systems use hybrid constructions, like elektrostats for treble and mids, and dynamic speakers for the lower end! or, only elektrostats for high treble, dynamic for mids and dynamic for low end. Really good elektrostats that can do it all are very rare! All the higher end systems are mainly dynamic or hybrid!

again, your sweeping judgements without details are difficult to follow. also, saying you've been listening, for 25 years isn't helpful or credible without some data. you also seem to be jumping between headphones and speaker systems.

help us out -- give us some tangible examples to talk about.

 

[spritzer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif Stax' own tube amp, modded, and i used the pro outputs! Had the lambda pro's!Maybe i had the lambda's first incarnation, since there's a lambda pro 2 version of it. The first one lacked considderably! But it is general known now that the stax amps are far from the best amps to use with their headphones. Fact is that my modded dynamic setup is better in alot respects in comparison to my very expensive stax setup. I switched to dynamic setup for that reason and am very satisfied now, more so then i was with the stax. Sorry, don't get me wrong, but you seriously never heard any well driven dynamic setup. It is as good as any elektrostat and then some; more prat, drive and especially body! The balance is about 60/40 for dynamic setups and most, if not all high end recensents prefer dynamic setups in the high end region. This is a link to siltech's new state of the art high end louspeaker, even nasa helped develop it! http://www.hifi.nl/nieuws/39021/Silt...idspreker.html costing 75.000 euro's a pair and you think it's crap before hand?! I heard plenty of speakers in that pricerange and they beat the crap out of elektrostats. Also elektrostats not well placed sound really crap! Placing IS very important with elektrostats and need plenty of room!

So that would have been the T1 then with a separate preheat button on the front panel and a single input? That isn't a very good amp to base you sweeping judgements of all electrostatics on and neither is the Lambda Pro. Though it is well loved here I don't like them at all and the older normal version is much better. If your phones were black then it was either a normal or Pro Lambda. The Signatures which replaced the Pro's are chocolate brown.

I've heard a lot of very good dynamic setup that far surpass most of the amps used here on Head-fi, most are SET with specially wound transformers for the headphones used and 2w or more of power. All use NOS oil caps with no regulation or metal film resistors/electrolytic caps.

The Siltech speaker is a joke like all of their products. It shows no understanding of what make electrostats really tick but I'm sure the idiots of the audio press will love it and so will the poor idiots that buy it. I read the 6moons piece on it and there is nothing new there but they make it look that way by throwing around some fancy words and names and playing on the general lack of knowledge about electrostatics.

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcn3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif again, your sweeping judgements without details are difficult to follow. also, saying you've been listening, for 25 years isn't helpful or credible without some data. you also seem to be jumping between headphones and speaker systems. help us out -- give us some tangible examples to talk about.

You're sweeping bold statements about the lambda either it has flwas, the better the system, the easier it shows. period. this is getting off topic now and it IS to the OP if he likes the headphones or not! I gave my opion based on my extensive experience with that particular headphone and tube amp!

Again, it is not flawless and the sound of elektrostats IS not for everybody! period. Now ontopic again.

I probably heard more high end systems then you have.

 

[jcn3]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tourmaline /img/forum/go_quote.gif You're sweeping bold statements about the lambda either it has flwas, the better the system, the easier it shows. period. this is getting off topic now and it IS to the OP if he likes the headphones or not! I gave my opion based on my extensive experience with that particular headphone and tube amp! Again, it is not flawless and the sound of elektrostats IS not for everybody! period. Now ontopic again. I probably heard more high end systems then you have.

i think you're getting posters mixed up . . . go review the posts.

i'm sorry, but we're going nowhere. tourmaline thinks he knows everything and is absolutely right and has heard more/better systems than any of us.

why should we even continue?

 

[tourmaline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spritzer /img/forum/go_quote.gif So that would have been the T1 then with a separate preheat button on the front panel and a single input? That isn't a very good amp to base you sweeping judgements of all electrostatics on and neither is the Lambda Pro. Though it is well loved here I don't like them at all and the older normal version is much better. If your phones were black then it was either a normal or Pro Lambda. The Signatures which replaced the Pro's are chocolate brown. I've heard a lot of very good dynamic setup that far surpass most of the amps used here on Head-fi, most are SET with specially wound transformers for the headphones used and 2w or more of power. All use NOS oil caps with no regulation or metal film resistors/electrolytic caps. The Siltech speaker is a joke like all of their products. It shows no understanding of what make electrostats really tick but I'm sure the idiots of the audio press will love it and so will the poor idiots that buy it. I read the 6moons piece on it and there is nothing new there but they make it look that way by throwing around some fancy words and names and playing on the general lack of knowledge about electrostatics.

No, it was the signature, brown version. Amp was the stax own tube amp heavally modded with high end parts, wouldn't you think stax thought of it as a good partner for their own elektrostats?!

later on, more found out that good aftermarket amps were much better then stax' own amps.

Yes, i am using a good tube design amp, hybrid with the best parts you can get. i recemtly modded it to the max for alot of money and about 60 percent was replaced by high end materials also alot of caps, especially in the powersection and coupler position!

This setup is much better then the lambda signature/tube amp ever was!

I agree with you that alot of money doesn't automatically translates into good sound. As i stated before, i think quad elektrostats are amongst the best for a "reasonable" amount of money.

Do mind that elektrostats wear and you might have to replace the membrane in time! maybe the reason why some sell their headphones?!