[mewrei]

Has anyone ever heard of them? I was looking into some documentation about Low-ESR capacitors and one of their engineers had a pretty good article on it.

Anyone have any experience or know of these capacitors to know if they're good in audio products?

 

[SiBurning]

I bought some 10,000 uF capacitors and was disappointed at how small they were. The old ones were 5" long, and these look ridiculous taking their place at just over 1".

Okay, not really relevant. Just saying.

 

[tomb]

I've never been impressed. They're a low grade electrolytic. Their specs are atrocious compared to our standard choice around here - Nichicon UPW, UHE, and Panasonic FC, FM.

Let's take a typical example, say a 470uf 35V cap -
UPW: 0.052 ESR 1220 ma ripple
FM: 0.019 ESR 2180 ma ripple
Illinois (477RSS035M): 0.423 ESR 524 ma ripple

Not even in the same universe, really.

 

[SiBurning]

I think the numbers look a little different in the larger sizes. I bought the 10,000 uF caps because the specs looked better.

 

[mewrei]

Hmmm good information to know. Guess they weren't really used for a reason. Thanks for the info.

 

[pixeljedi]

My only experience with them, was trying a 1.0 µF pair in a cmoy. They sounded very bright.

 

[grenert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've never been impressed. They're a low grade electrolytic. Their specs are atrocious compared to our standard choice around here - Nichicon UPW, UHE, and Panasonic FC, FM. Let's take a typical example, say a 470uf 35V cap - UPW: 0.052 ESR 1220 ma ripple FM: 0.019 ESR 2180 ma ripple Illinois (477RSS035M): 0.423 ESR 524 ma ripple Not even in the same universe, really.

Well, if you're going to quote data, at least play fair and compare apples to apples. You can't choose the low-ESR series caps from one company and compare with a standard cap from another. Also, I believe you're quoting impedance values at 100kHz for UPW and FM, and ESR values at 120Hz for IC. The IC low-ESR lines are RZS and JZM. So, for a 470uF 25V cap (the JZM series only goes to 25V):
UPW: 0.068 ohms impedance at 100kHz 1050 ma ripple
FM: 0.026 ohms impedance at 100kHz 1790 ma ripple
Illinois 477JZM025M 0.019 ohms ESR at 100kHz 2030 ma ripple

Hmmm...

 

[SiBurning]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grenert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, if you're going to quote data, at least play fair and compare apples to apples. You can't choose the low-ESR series caps from one company and compare with a standard cap from another. Also, I believe you're quoting impedance values at 100kHz for UPW and FM, and ESR values at 120Hz for IC. The IC low-ESR lines are RZS and JZM. So, for a 470uF 25V cap (the JZM series only goes to 25V): UPW: 0.068 ohms impedance at 100kHz 1050 ma ripple FM: 0.026 ohms impedance at 100kHz 1790 ma ripple Illinois 477JZM025M 0.019 ohms ESR at 100kHz 2030 ma ripple Hmmm...

That's more in line with what I remember. I chose them for the ripple current and related values, which would have led me to higher capacitance values in the other lines. Also the diameter mattered. Still, don't take this as any kind of recommendation on my part. I have no basis from experience to recommend one line over the other.

 

[mewrei]

So maybe experimenting with them might be a good idea then? Might be an interesting comparison. I'll do some research and see what I come up with on them.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by grenert /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, if you're going to quote data, at least play fair and compare apples to apples. You can't choose the low-ESR series caps from one company and compare with a standard cap from another. Also, I believe you're quoting impedance values at 100kHz for UPW and FM, and ESR values at 120Hz for IC. The IC low-ESR lines are RZS and JZM. So, for a 470uF 25V cap (the JZM series only goes to 25V): UPW: 0.068 ohms impedance at 100kHz 1050 ma ripple FM: 0.026 ohms impedance at 100kHz 1790 ma ripple Illinois 477JZM025M 0.019 ohms ESR at 100kHz 2030 ma ripple Hmmm...

With respect, I think you're off into the apples-oranges, rather than me..

Granted, I pulled an RSS- low-profile and should've picked a CKR or CKE, but they're very similar. Compare standard capacitor, full-range selections at Mouser (UPW, UHE), DigiKey (FC, FM), and Allied Electrical - Illinois CKR,CKE. The Nichicons and Panasonics are better by a whopping margin - they are the full-line, full range caps, not "special, low-ESR."

Nichicon offers a huge amount of low-ESR and specialized caps that are not even published in Mouser's regular catalog listing (UHN's, UHZ's, etc., etc.), but available from Mouser, nonetheless. Many of those caps have far better specs than Nichicon's and Panasonic's regular lines. My comparison was valid, I think.


EDIT: Even though the first post was the RSS, the CKE (470uf 35V 105degC, sub-miniature, aluminum radial) is 0.423 and 450ma - almost the same. Pull the catalog page, go down the list and compare with Mouser's offerings and DigiKey's offerings - it's a simple comparison throughout the line - 85degC caps and 105degC caps. Sure, you can find isolated instances or if you go off the large listings to speciality caps, but it's not apples to apples at that point.

 

[mewrei]

I'm kind of torn at this point, I've been doing some research into them and they seem pretty good on paper.

Might put in for a few samples and throw them into a C-Moy and see how they fare (I have an extra lying around).

 

[SiBurning]

Sine you're torn, I'll give you a very subjective opinion... or rather, my perspective on Illinois Capacitors.

I think Illinois Capacitors creates their lines of capacitors for a specific set of customers. I believe their primary customers are essentially building computer and industrial boards. The different lines offer a set of choices that serves the needs of these customers. A company serving audio manufacturers would create a different lineup to serve the needs of their customers. Panasonic, serves both types of customers--audio and industrial--and they have a larger set of capacitor types to meet those needs.

None of this matters when picking a capacitor for a particular application. You may feel safer choosing a capacitor from a line known and loved by audio builders, but that doesn't mean a capacitor conceived for use in an industrial application is necessarily a worse fit. It often happens when you have a particular need that you'll find the best options outside the well-worn product lines.

From this perspective, the side discussion about which specs are the right ones doesn't answer the question. Assuming Illinois Capacitors uses the same standards to write their specs, just look for a capacitor that does what you want. If you can find something perfectly suited within a product line that serves the audio community better, you should use it. The main reasons to stick to those parts are you don't need to go fishing around, asking questions, and experimenting, and maybe learn something new the hard way. It's also easier to maintain stock and purchase from one supplier. But I wouldn't hesitate to go elsewhere for the slightest technical reason, or even just to try out something new.

I know this doesn't answer the question. Not for you and not for me. But it does explain how I look at their products and lays out the wishy washy factors I'd consider if I were in your situation. I had a special need once, and they seemed to fit the bill. While they work just fine, they really look weird sitting there so small like that. Hey! Maybe I'm just a little biased against them for that. I did save the old caps and have thought about gutting them and wrapping the empty cases around the little weenies just to make the amp look cool and original again. But who looks inside the case anyway?