iFi Audio Pro iDSD discussion thread

[sdolezalek]

Given that since you started the iDSD Pro development process a lot has happened on the software side of the business (specifically I would point to Roon and the recent announcement of Roon-Ready hardware as well as the even more recent announcements of Meridian's MQA partnerships) is it likely that we will see the enablement of either of these technologies in the Pro when it is released? 

 

[Trogdor]

Given that since you started the iDSD Pro development process a lot has happened on the software side of the business (specifically I would point to Roon and the recent announcement of Roon-Ready hardware as well as the even more recent announcements of Meridian's MQA partnerships) is it likely that we will see the enablement of either of these technologies in the Pro when it is released? 

Unless you are multi-room TIDAL streaming kinda audiophile, as of today, they have very little impact on the average iDSD Pro customer, right? What am I missing?

 

[sdolezalek]

MQA in theory not only benefits streaming folks but could also be embedded in downloadable digital files, so you would miss that benefit.  As to Roon, one of the great things it enables is using your computer to do additional processing (both upsampling, filtering, convolution and room response adjustments) that are then fed into the DAC by simply connecting it to your network.  So it isn't just mulltiroom, but it assumes that you wouldn't necessarily have a high powered computer in the same room as your DAC (both to avoid fan noise and electromechanical noise). 
 
So yes, it would be focused on the "audiophile" types but I thought that was exactly where the iDSD Pro was focused (as compared to the Nano or Micro).

 

[Trogdor]

MQA in theory not only benefits streaming folks but could also be embedded in downloadable digital files, so you would miss that benefit.  As to Roon, one of the great things it enables is using your computer to do additional processing (both upsampling, filtering, convolution and room response adjustments) that are then fed into the DAC by simply connecting it to your network. 

Again, once you say network, I think multiroom.

So it isn't just mulltiroom, but it assumes that you wouldn't necessarily have a high powered computer in the same room as your DAC (both to avoid fan noise and electromechanical noise). 

So yes, it would be focused on the "audiophile" types but I thought that was exactly where the iDSD Pro was focused (as compared to the Nano or Micro).

But there are " hidden costs" to all of these things (licensing mainly) and it's not clear to me that either of these technologies are truly entrenched even within the audiophile market.

Sorry if I'm grumpy about it but I find the enthusiasm for a $600 software player very, very strange....

I am thoroughly excited about both PRO series of products and I think they maybe THE products of 2016 to watch.

 

[labjr]

I imagine MQA can also be software decoded by media player,  So doesn't necessarily have to be built in to the DAC. What I don't get is where's the motivation for record labels to remaster again just to do MQA encoding when they do such a lousy job with mastering and provenance already? If anything they may transcode current digital files and try to pass them off as newly remastered. Thus, I'm not to worried about MQA becoming well established.

 

[Trogdor]

I imagine MQA can also be software decoded by media player,  So doesn't necessarily have to be built in to the DAC. What I don't get is where's the motivation for record labels to remaster again just to do MQA encoding when they do such a lousy job with mastering and provenance already? If anything they may transcode current digital files and try to pass them off as newly remastered. Thus, I'm not to worried about MQA becoming well established.

You summarized my thoughts exactly. Unless you are TIDAL and streaming lossless files, I don't see any benefit yet. And you can be rest assured that both Spotify and Apple aren't going to pay Meridian licensing fees either.

 

[sdolezalek]

I have found that most folks who are "grumpy" about this haven't tried it (and in this case try usually means using it for several weeks as there is a real learning curve).  So it takes work, often quite a bit more work than plugging in a piece of hardware and sitting back and listening.  But the amount of fidelity that a number of us have already been able to pull out of both the iDSD Nano and iDSD Micro using these pieces of software (particularly when one uses HQPlayer integrated with Roon) means we are getting the sound quality equivalent of what would otherwise be a much more expensive DAC (in fact, by comparison the cost of the software is cheap). Depends on how you value your own time as to whether a $3-5,000 DAC would get you the same upside.
 
Of course, my expectation is that using some of that same software with the iDSD Pro will get you into "state of the art" range with the very best DACs out there.  
 
As to MQA, I too would have thought it was going to be a fringe product, but look at how many manufacturers have, in just this week at CES, announced they are going to be integrating some form of MQA.  

 

[EVOLVIST]

   
Hi,
 
Easy one, "yes!"

 
@iFi audio I've been reading back through old threads, but haven't found anything (possibly because nothing exists), so I'll ask: does the iDSD micro have the de-tuned TubeState, as well, where it's not enough to say it has TubeState circuitry? I've always said that the iDSD micro sounds the most vinyl-like of any out-of-the-box DAC I have ever heard. So I was wondering if a de-tuned TubeState might be a part of the reason.

 

[iFi audio]

   
@iFi audio I've been reading back through old threads, but haven't found anything (possibly because nothing exists), so I'll ask: does the iDSD micro have the de-tuned TubeState, as well, where it's not enough to say it has TubeState circuitry? I've always said that the iDSD micro sounds the most vinyl-like of any out-of-the-box DAC I have ever heard. So I was wondering if a de-tuned TubeState might be a part of the reason.

 
Hi,
 
No.
 
The headphone Amplifier in the iDSD micro is based on the design of the original iCAN and parallels its design in many areas. However, due to space and power consumptions limitations (read: 50:50 desktoportable) a Burr Brown "SoundPlus" J-Fet operational Amplifier is used instead of the Tubestate circuitry.
 
The SoundPlus iFi use is one of the best sounding Op-Amp's out there (at almost any money), yet it is still a traditional solid-state part.
So as a result the Headphone Amplifier in the iDSD micro is essentially neutral.
 
"I've always said that the iDSD micro sounds the most vinyl-like of any out-of-the-box DAC I have ever heard. So I was wondering if a de-tuned TubeState might be a part of the reason."
 
We suspect that you are hearing the merits of the BB DSD1793 DAC Chip and it's implementation. At AMR/iFi we come from a Vinyl/Tubes/Ultra-Fi background and we try hard to capture the crucial qualities of Vinyl and Tubes in all Equipment we make, regardless of cost. Google CD-77 and you know what we mean.
 
We spent a considerable amount of time on the DAC side, as this seems to be the area where the greatest gain can be made within a system, too many DAC's sadly sound stereotypically 'Digital.'

 

[iFi audio]

  Given that since you started the iDSD Pro development process a lot has happened on the software side of the business (specifically I would point to Roon and the recent announcement of Roon-Ready hardware as well as the even more recent announcements of Meridian's MQA partnerships) is it likely that we will see the enablement of either of these technologies in the Pro when it is released? 

 
Hi,
 
Good question.
 
MQA is at this point (based on our latest information) not finalised in terms of Specifications as well as licensing model etc.
 
Meridian has been working with a small number of "strategic partners", if you are not one, they play cards close to the chest. So in this situation we cannot sensibly commit to embedding MQA decoding in iFi Hardware.
 
As we have stated before, presuming that MQA sees significant adoption, that licensing is Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory (FRAND) and that the decoding part does not require resources on the XMOS Chips that are allocated elsewhere, we have no issue to update all iFi firmware to support MQA.
 
However, while initially Meridian seemed to insist that MQA is Hardware decoding only, this stance seems to have changed and some software is expected to decode MQA in Software to standard PCM. If Software decoding becomes widespread (e.g. Roon, Tidal etc.) there would be little point to embed MQA.
 
Time will tell. Bottom line, we are not against MQA and will support it if that makes any sense, but unless and until we see full spec, licensing models and source code we cannot make any formal statements as to if and when MQA will be on iFi Hardware.
 
In many cases the support announced for MQA by Playback Software and Streamer vendors merely means they will play files bit-perfect, which most do these days, nothing else is needed support MQA if Hardware based decoding is used.
 
Hope this sheds more light.

 

[rickyleelee]

others on another forum already discussed the failed meridian lossless packaging. Just hope this isnt another fad.

 

[Mfcthebold]

While MLP may have been a failed format as a consumer accepted format, all blu-rays and even movie theaters still utilize the format. It is now licensed through Dolby as Dolby True HD and an expanded channel version known as Atmos. The technology is quite outstanding from a codec perspective.
MQA is an encode<>decode technology. Where the decoding occurs is unclear. What is known that a lot of Bob Stuart's efforts in anti-aliasing and pre-ring correction is part of it.

I would be very happy if this format catches fire, no matter the licensing and methods to get it to the market. If AMR is able to make MQA possible once the business end is satisfied, I will be first in line to support iFi.

 

[bmoura]

 
I imagine MQA can also be software decoded by media player,  So doesn't necessarily have to be built in to the DAC. What I don't get is where's the motivation for record labels to remaster again just to do MQA encoding when they do such a lousy job with mastering and provenance already? If anything they may transcode current digital files and try to pass them off as newly remastered. Thus, I'm not to worried about MQA becoming well established.

According to Meridian there are two parts to the MQA decoding process - software and hardware. You can get some of the MQA benefits by listening with software including licensed MQA decoding.
For full MQA decoding and benefits, the DAC or Player hardware also needs MQA decoding.

 

[rickyleelee]

on another forum, it is mentioned that MQA is lossly whereas MQA is advertised as lossless. That already gave me doubts about it. i am watching to see the cheerleading ladies who support mreidian as it is good to read.

 

[EVOLVIST]

This thread has died down a little. Isn't it about time to jumpstart our excitement?!!!

 
@iFi audio can you give us some good news on the iDSD Pro and the iCAN Pro?