If you had $10k and were starting from scratch…

[fliz]

Nope, I'm completely stumped, LOL. You give me too much credit for my reading abilities, LOL.

I checked the website and didn't see power chords in the $500 range. They were significantly more. This situation may be where the website lists what is currently in stock versus ordering something to be built.

He unfortunately hasn't updated his website in years. The guy who he hired to do that dropped off the face of the earth it seems.

Just call him. It's the 425 number on the contacts page.

 

[Bytor123]

If you had $10k and were starting from scratch… - A decent pair of Bluetooth headphones and then off to the pub. A taxi home.

 

[botmann]

He unfortunately hasn't updated his website in years. The guy who he hired to do that dropped off the face of the earth it seems.

Just call him. It's the 425 number on the contacts page.

I wasn't really interested in buying one. I was more curious to read about the product. I'll check out (read) about any product even if I'm not interested in purchasing. It's fun to read about the differences in products that are available

 

[fliz]

I wasn't really interested in buying one. I was more curious to read about the product. I'll check out (read) about any product even if I'm not interested in purchasing. It's fun to read about the differences in products that are available

Heh... I feel you, but tbh, this is exactly what's wrong with this industry.

Frankly, there's literally nothing honest someone could say about a power cord besides, "This sounds better and I have no idea why."

I guess he could tell you exactly what he did to build it, but that would be giving up the secret sauce.

The R&D for pretty much everything in this industry is purely trial & error, with repeated iterations resulting in an intuition about what to try next.

I guess that means he could say, "These newest cords are the result of 20+ years of trial and error."

The problem is, this is not even remotely as compelling as the snake oil lies like, "the unobtainium alloy used in the construction of this cord masturbates the electrons more than any other cord out there and is why we charge $10,000 for it."

 

[fliz]

dupe post. sorry

 

[Lindholdt]

The R&D for pretty much everything in this industry is purely trial & error, with repeated iterations resulting in an intuition about what to try next.

What do you base this on?
It might be the case for things like cables and such, but it should not be for IEMs or headphones. It certainly isn't for speakers.

 

[Thomasr]

Frankly, there's literally nothing honest someone could say about a power cord besides, "This sounds better and I have no idea why."

Which is pretty much exactly what Bottlehead says on their website.

 

[bagwell359]

Hybid headphones/speakers:

Schiit Rag 2 $999
Schiit Yggy LIM $2299
Cambridge Audio Streamer open box $399
HFM HE-6 SE v2 Open Box $399
HFM HEK SE $1699
ZMF Auteur 2024 $1599
JAR600 $849
BMR Philharmonic Monitor Speakers $1800

$10,043

 

[kajetanjazz]

- Raal Immanis + transformer interface
- Apple Dongle

 

[fliz]

What do you base this on?
It might be the case for things like cables and such, but it should not be for IEMs or headphones. It certainly isn't for speakers.

Even with transducers, it comes down to someone thinking, "Maybe this will sound better. Let's build it and see." There's a little bit of theory that goes into the the guesswork of "maybe this will work better because of my understanding of XXX principle", but that's still guesswork. This is also absolutely true for speaker enclosures as well. Sure, there are guiding principles, which are an amalgamation of the knowledge from previous trial and error, but you will still have to build and confirm the theory even when you're relying on those guiding principles.

*IF* it sounds better, then *sometimes* they work backwards and ask, "Why?", come up with a hypothesis, and then create an experiment to test their theory.

This is fairly rare, because there's very little benefit to going through this effort. That's for scientists, not engineers. From a business perspective, it's more important that something IS better, rather than knowing WHY it's better.

This is easy to understand with "cables and such", but the same principle applies to creating new high end capacitors, designing crossovers, choosing the parameters to drive your tube(s) at, which tubes you choose (or which opamps you choose), transformer materials, internal wiring designs, pots, power supply regulators, you name it.

Sometimes it's a cost:benefit analysis, "Does paying the extra for a higher quality component make a difference in this part of the design?"

It still just comes down to, "Let's build it and see."

 

[Lindholdt]

Even with transducers, it comes down to someone thinking, "Maybe this will sound better. Let's build it and see." There's a little bit of theory that goes into the the guesswork of "maybe this will work better because of my understanding of XXX principle", but that's still guesswork. This is also absolutely true for speaker enclosures as well. Sure, there are guiding principles, which are an amalgamation of the knowledge from previous trial and error, but you will still have to build and confirm the theory even when you're relying on those guiding principles.

*IF* it sounds better, then *sometimes* they work backwards and ask, "Why?", come up with a hypothesis, and then create an experiment to test their theory.

This is fairly rare, because there's very little benefit to going through this effort. That's for scientists, not engineers. From a business perspective, it's more important that something IS better, rather than knowing WHY it's better.

This is easy to understand with "cables and such", but the same principle applies to creating new high end capacitors, designing crossovers, choosing the parameters to drive your tube(s) at, which tubes you choose (or which opamps you choose), transformer materials, internal wiring designs, pots, power supply regulators, you name it.

Sometimes it's a cost:benefit analysis, "Does paying the extra for a higher quality component make a difference in this part of the design?"

It still just comes down to, "Let's build it and see."

As someone who works at a company that develops, produce and sell HiFi speakers, I cannot recognize your description at all.
And it is not the my impression that many, if any, of our competitors work in the way you describe it.
Where do get this information from?

I will agree that you need to think outside the box to innovate, but you make it sound like it is all just guesswork, which I don't agree with at all.

 

[botmann]

.. Frankly, there's literally nothing honest someone could say about a power cord besides, "This sounds better and I have no idea why." ... The R&D for pretty much everything in this industry is purely trial & error, with repeated iterations resulting in an intuition about what to try next.

Well, this is true to some degree for most industries. Although, there is probably more science and understanding physics go into this. It may be a little more blind science with the solely guys working in a basement.

....as compelling as the snake oil lies like, "the unobtainium alloy used in the construction of this cord masturbates the electrons more than any other cord out there and is why we charge $10,000 for it."

It doesn't matter how big or small a company may be, almost all try this tactic, LOL.

The issue with power cords in this hobby is they're trying to sell you the idea that someone the power will be cleaner or have less resistance than what is being put out the wall. The latter may be true. This is only solves the problem is the device is not getting the power it needs; this is complicated by what else is connected to that circuit--power strips or breaker. The first is only an issue if the household wiring is crap. Anything build in the last twenty to thirty years should be good, unless crap electrician work. Old houses from the 1940s or earlier, and haven't had the wiring updated, this is may be true. This is also where power conditioners clean up the Sine wave may help.

Since the bueatic cords are not fire rated and may not build in a way that is safe form causing shorts, I tend to be a wary.

With that said, I tend to tell people, replace if need because of length. Otherwise, try to get power cords away from speaker and interconnects first since that could be the source of interference.

I'm not knocking products like power cords, speaker cables, isolation pucks, and so forth. It's more that people are not necessarily understanding what they can actual solve and it matching the problem they're trying to fix. And like many here, I've spent thousands on this stuff before I had a good understanding of the products and problems and how they actually work together.

 

[fliz]

As someone who works at a company that develops, produce and sell HiFi speakers, I cannot recognize your description at all.
And it is not the my impression that many, if any, of our competitors work in the way you describe it.
Where do get this information from?

I will agree that you need to think outside the box to innovate, but you make it sound like it is all just guesswork, which I don't agree with at all.

"Just" guesswork implies that all innovations are blind shots in the dark. That's not what I'm saying. The "shots" are based on past experience of what has and hasn't worked, but the understanding of the underlying principles behind why those past shots did or didn't work is, as best, only intuited.

I will concede that this is far more true at the bleeding edge of the best of the best. If you're designing speakers that aren't trying to break new ground and accomplish what was previously considered impossible, you're walking paths that others have trailblazed and therefore are much less "blind" wrt what will and won't work.

 

[fliz]

Well, this is true to some degree for most industries. Although, there is probably more science and understanding physics go into this. It may be a little more blind science with the solely guys working in a basement.

The guy in the basement is the one who ends up accomplishing what other, more pragmatic, companies don't even try because it's "impossible".

It doesn't matter how big or small a company may be, almost all try this tactic, LOL.

The key word here is *almost*.

Just because nearly everybody is a crook, doesn't make it ok.

The issue with power cords in this hobby is they're trying to sell you the idea that someone the power will be cleaner or have less resistance than what is being put out the wall.

That's exactly the issue. They're selling an "idea", and not simply standing by the performance of their product while admitting their understanding of how/why the product accomplishes what it does is weak.

The latter may be true. This is only solves the problem is the device is not getting the power it needs; this is complicated by what else is connected to that circuit--power strips or breaker. The first is only an issue if the household wiring is crap. Anything build in the last twenty to thirty years should be good, unless crap electrician work. Old houses from the 1940s or earlier, and haven't had the wiring updated, this is may be true. This is also where power conditioners clean up the Sine wave may help.

You can never have clean enough power. It can always be better. My system sounds better in the middle of the night, most likely because there's happening on the grid.

Since the bueatic cords are not fire rated and may not build in a way that is safe form causing shorts, I tend to be a wary.

Getting rated by UL is expensive, but a lack of doesn't mean what you're getting is necessarily unsafe. I buy "organic" produce from the farmer's market that isn't certified organic, because the certification would raise the costs significantly. Instead, I just have good enough relationship with the farmers that I can put my trust in them instead of USDA or Oregon Tilth (or, in this case, Underwriters Labs.)

To be fire safe, the builder just needs to use wire w/ an insulation rating around 600v. That's more than enough.

With that said, I tend to tell people, replace if need because of length. Otherwise, try to get power cords away from speaker and interconnects first since that could be the source of interference.

I tell people to audition stuff with a good return policy and a good reputation. Your ICs should be shielded, so that shouldn't be the cause of any issues.

I'm not knocking products like power cords, speaker cables, isolation pucks, and so forth. It's more that people are not necessarily understanding what they can actual solve and it matching the problem they're trying to fix. And like many here, I've spent thousands on this stuff before I had a good understanding of the products and problems and how they actually work together.

It's somewhat paradoxical. The better, more resolving, your gear is, the more tweaks make a difference.

The difference between a good power cord and a "perfectly sufficient" power cord is much more noticeable when your gear is top notch, so yes, for most people, it probably shouldn't be a priority. That said, if your system is in the high 4 figures and you're using stock power cords, you'll probably see a benefit investing another $1k or so in upgrading them, provided you find a builder that isn't just selling audio jewelry. This is why auditioning gear is so important.

 

[cinisi]

I would buy back what I had before I moved to IEM's. My rig was so much fun!

New prices (approximately):
ZMF Verite Closed (2500)
Kennerton Rognir (3500)
Denafrips Pontus II (2000)
ZMF Pendant (1500)

I would switch back and forth between the rognir and VC

This would amount up to around 9500, but I would recommend buying all of these on the used market to save some $$.
For the 500, or added saved cash, you could invest in some good (looking, lol) cables.

I am also quite sure that with a rig half or a quarter of this price I would be just as happy.
But I accumulated the above items over years, and told myself with each upgrade (such as ares II to pontus II) that I heard a clear difference.
Who knows, maybe a did

For context, I am a person that loves a warm sound, and the items above gave me exactly that.
Don't care at all for neutral sound, or to retrieve max detail, I just want to listen to a dynamic representation of the music I hear.
For the same reason I enjoy a Samsung TV over LG and Sony, since Samsung TV's often offer a more dynamic screen display (more contrast) while the other 2 look more natural.

If I would move back to headphones, this is what I would aim to get