that's one big can of worm i don't want to open.... interconnect cables?
If you had $10k and were starting from scratch…
- Thread starter TurboDorkDon
- Start date
jonathan c
Headphoneus Supremus
But they should be included in an audio budget 
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.they should but i don't want to make this a cable discussion than headphone stack.....But they should be included in an audio budget
fliz
100+ Head-Fier
It's kinda rough. There are SO many scams in the cable business (and in high end audio in general) that it's completely understandable that lots of people think they're bull, as that IS true more often than not.
Then along comes someone who says, "No really, these cables are GREAT!" and everybody's like, "yeah.. right..."
i run pure copper and/or pure silver along the chain.... some say it doesn't make any difference but they made enough for me to keep them.....
fliz
100+ Head-Fier
To make matters more confusing, I've heard copper wires that outperform silver wires, solely due to how they copper was implemented.
the terminations absolutely make a difference, too, but I've heard cheap terminations that outperform expensive ones as well.
Even the solder makes a difference! This stuff is the best I know about: https://www.mundorf.com/audio/en/shop/Solders/MSolder_Supreme_SG/
The chain that they are used in will also effect the outcome I would assume. I do agree that the quality of the materials and build play a part though.
This is true to almost everything. In this realm, it's true. The question, and where a lot of debate, is "how much". If running digital, it can be insignificant; and may fall into "bias" or "hearing a difference" when there is none because one has spent the money or wants to hear it. Analog, there may be more truth to it because cables may pick up interference. Long cable runs tend to show "differences" more versus the one to six feet in the headphone realm.
Yes, the cables that will come with the equipment will work. Some of this stuff will not come with cables.
If were going to go deep into sound "improvements" you forgot the isolation pads or hockey pucks. I would be amiss if I didn't mention the "upgraded" power cables or power conditioners too.
fliz
100+ Head-Fier
Your scare quotes around "upgraded" tell me you are very skeptical of the difference they can make. Sure, placebo effects can happen when someone is literally invested in hearing a difference, but to assume that's always the case is a bit naive.
Again, as with most things in this industry, there's lots of dishonesty. There are honest manufacturers though that make cables that make a huge difference. Yes, this includes power cables. They aren't crazy expensive and they aren't audio jewelry. People selling cables that cost $10k that look absolutely gorgeous should be met with extreme skepticism though. On that we agree.
The "upgrade" thing is to account for placebo/bias effect and true "differences" Unfortunately, this is a hobby of diminished returns. You are correct, I'm very skeptical of anything regarded as "huge". Are there some differences, sure. Usually not in the higher priced items. As mentioned before, the differences tend to be small to the average consumer. In this group, small differences can be big, but to if we're honest with ourselves, they're not. Would you really say there are gigantic differences between HD600, Clear, and Utopia. To us, probably. To the smuck on the street, probably not.
As for power cables, that is almost pure snake oil. Not in all cases, but it's pretty rare. I would say unless you live in a place with old power wiring, have a bad cable, or have some issue with the equipment, it should not significantly reduce interference. It's also possible the cord cannot carry enough power that the equipment needs; this can occur if too many devices are connected to a particular power circuit for the plug. Granted, some of those plugs do look really nice/cool.
I do give some credence to isolation/hockey pucks. Mainly it can significantly reduce the vibration of the equipment which can be audible or affect performance. I use only them for the prior because my speakers sit two or three inches from the AVR and amp; not ideal but a consequence of space limits.
I don't know every ins and outs of audio. Having played with audio for too many years in home, auto, and headphones from the cheap to (some) pricey, I've learned some expensive lessons when it comes to cables. I would say in general, you do get significant better build quality with the more expensive cables. And analog cables is where the differences is most noticeable. Digital, not really.
fliz
100+ Head-Fier
I completely agree that we tend to care about things that other people do not consider important. It's literally in the name "audiophile".
We love audio. Most people don't. We're willing to spend money on a stereo or headphone rig that others wouldn't even spend on a car. In fact, my stereo costs MORE than my car.
This is somewhat unfair. If we're being honest, almost everything in this industry is snake oil and "look really nice/cool". This is not unique to cables. The industry is rife with people who will sell overpriced garbage in a pretty package. I've heard things that are in the high 5 figures that I thought were unlistenable and I've seen the insides of things that are $$$$ only to confirm they were using parts that are less than a dollar on digikey.
That said, we are nowhere close to fully understanding how electricity works or *why* things make the differences that they do. Sure, having wiring that's an insufficient gauge is understandably likely to cause under-performance issues, but we do not have the slightest clue why things that are more than sufficient have positive effects when replacing things that *should be* perfectly sufficient according to our current understanding of how electricity works.
I once had an electrician install a dedicated line for my system and insisted on a gauge that was absolutely overkill according to all electrical standards (I don't recall if it was 10awg or 8awg, but it required spades to attach to my outlet.)
The electrician argued with me. I refused to concede. He resigned himself to do it anyway because, "Hey. It's your money to waste."
I let him listen before and after and he insisted I cheated when he heard the difference that he couldn't explain.
If anybody tells you WHY audiophile power cords can sometimes make a positive difference, they're lying. They don't have a ****ing clue. Nobody does. That doesn't change the reality that they DO sometimes make a difference that people in this hobby would characterize as "large". Admittedly, "large" is relative, but we're talking the same size difference as replacing an amp or replacing a DAC.
Most of these are snake oil too. There are a handful that are legitimately effective but sadly the markup on these things is outright robbery. The price to manufacture stillpoints vs the price they charge is especially egregious, but they do work.
The issue isn't the build quality. It's the design. There are things that matter and things that don't matter. In both analog and digital cables, there are material concerns, wiring design concerns, filtering concerns, resistance concerns, shielding concerns, and more. Addressing all these things effectively will NEVER necessitate charging $10k for a cable though. What you're buying at that price is jewelry. What makes matters worse, is (very often) that jewelry does NOT address the real audio concerns effectively.
My current cabling solutions are comparatively modest and the guy I got my cables from consistently has clients replacing stuff that they paid MUCH much more for. They're not jewelry though. They don't *look* like anything special at all, but I've heard them side by side with cables that cost thousands and they beat them. One reviewer returned interconnects that cost 5 figures. The company owner called him, pissed off.
"He must have stolen my designs!", he exclaimed.
"Then why do they sound so much better than yours?", he retorted.
I won't say who made those 5 figure cables. That's bad form IMO, but the cables in my system cost $350 for the interconnects, $500 for power cords, and my usb cable was included with the purchase of my DAC.
They don't look like anything special, but nobody's ever sent a set back after hearing them in their systems.
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The power cables is a bit more snake oil than a lot of stuff in the hobby. From what I've seen, improvements were usually from something else. My biggest issue is more they're not fire safety rated; I take not causing a fire more important. Thus, this is why I went with a medical grade power cable. They have to be wary of radio interference.
The isolation/hockey pucks are slightly less snake oil. They do reduce vibrations, which can be audibile. Towards the audio equipment, I did not notice anything significant; I highly doubt I truly heard a difference beyond the eqiupment/cabinets vibrating. Heck, I got them for my subwoofer to reduce vibrations transferring to my roommates and neighbors.
I do not disagree that design can make a difference.
The isolation/hockey pucks are slightly less snake oil. They do reduce vibrations, which can be audibile. Towards the audio equipment, I did not notice anything significant; I highly doubt I truly heard a difference beyond the eqiupment/cabinets vibrating. Heck, I got them for my subwoofer to reduce vibrations transferring to my roommates and neighbors.
I do not disagree that design can make a difference.
fliz
100+ Head-Fier
You can probably guess who makes my power cables. (Hint: Check my signature.)
If you contact him, he'll let you audition them. He'll take them back and refund your $500 if you decide you don't want them. A client of his just replaced $1800 power cords with them.
Nope, I'm completely stumped, LOL. You give me too much credit for my reading abilities, LOL.
I checked the website and didn't see power chords in the $500 range. They were significantly more. This situation may be where the website lists what is currently in stock versus ordering something to be built.
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