[loveheadphones]

perhaps what people object to in the iriver is not the interface, but rather the way you use it to play your music.
There are few methods of playing the music: use a pre-made winamp playlist, play a directory at a time, or play all the songs on the hard drive.

With the Karma, there's the auto DJ feature
With the iPOD there's the ratings and smartlists

Some people find that software makes it nicer to use a player, other people don't.

I really don't have a problem with the IHP not having these options because I like to listen to full albums. I also don't mind creating playlists on the computer. I think the IHP will be the perfect player for my use if in a future firmware update the stupid shuffle issue is dealt with.

i just wanted to point out that the way you interact with the player could be considered the "interface" as well.

 

[TheMuffinMan_01]

no, i would get a karma.

 

[Sweet Spot]

Chewey, you're really going to have to elaborate on what it means to be a "different kind of customer". If you're trying to justify or re-enforce DLP's comments, that was a pretty bad example to use...it means nothing really. You're still sort of implying that it takes someone other than average joe to be able to figure it all out and be comfortable with it.

I really don't understand what the damage is here. Let me simplify this for everyone who may be curious.

The thing in the middle is called the navigator. Or nav button. It moves in 5 directions. Up, down, left, right and inward. When you press the play button to turn it on, you'll either be taken to the screen that you see above, OR you'll be taken to a screen that looks like this:

I use the latter method for navigation because my file tree in windows is immaculate and plotted out exactly as it needs to be. If you're the type of person (general statement) who is really unorganized and sloppy, no doubt that the former method (first pic) would suit you best because hopefully at least all your tags are in order. If you don't fit either category, then you don't deserve to have things be easy anyway. This usually applies to those who download music from K***a and such.

Now, let's start with the first screen. Currently, the browse by artist icon is selected. If you push the nav control to the right, you then scroll through the other browsing options (album, genre and song title..and the last one you see, actually enables you to go straight to the file tree method of viewing. And with NO delay.) So, push the nav control to the option of your choice and then push the navigator inwards/push it in towards the body. This selects your choice. This particular action pretty sums up how you select anything on the player.

Now, rather than going into choosing album, artist, genre or song title, let's choose to go into the file tree view ok ? Because really, the other stuff is TOO easy. Just scroll to your selection and push the nav control in...wow, that was hard. So yeah, let's go to the file tree view.

My screen looks similar. Only I have less in the root. Mine is ordered as such:

Root (this is actually seen in Win Explorer with the HD icon attached to it, hence the root status) I have chosen to create a folder called music and put it inside "root", as well as other folders. so it goes like this"

Root
Music
Storage (has sub folders:software, movies, text etc.)
Record
Music Ogg (this is actually a very small stand alone Ogg file..could be Mp3 too, but I used a small ogg. It's purpose is to make sure that when press the nav control from the main screen, you're directed to the root directory instead of to the first song by the first artist in your file tree. This is only necessary when you're not using the "resume" feature.)

The record folder is default and has two sub-folders named voice and music They're for when you yes...record something. The music folder, obviously has all of my music in it. Goes like this:

Artist>
Album>
Songs >
01)-whatever
Artist>
Album>
Songs>
You get the idea. Any artist folder can have whatever amount of sub-folders it needs for however many albums there are for that artist. Or perhaps folders you manually created for live shows, or B sides. VERY organized. VERY easy. Where do the folders come from ? How are they created ? Well, I personally use J.River Media Center to rip and encode all my CD's. It creates the folders and sub folders as I've directed it to do so. Set it, and forget it...Then after I've ripped all my CD's, I do a big batch encoding. When it's done, I plug in my IHP to the PC, go to the directory where my freshly encoded albums are, then drag and drop them in one felt swoop, and then they appear on my IHP exactly as they would be on my PC. This isn't the only way to do it, but for me it's fast and convienient. There are syncing programs, and one can even use Windows very own briefcase to sync the IHP with the folders from Explorer, but whatever. Let's start browsing shall we ?

Let's say we're at the root screen. (second pic) let's see, well...either push up or down...doesn't matter, the cursor actually goes past the screen on either side. So let's choose "music". Now that music is selected, you have two choices...you can either push the nav control to the right, OR you can depress the nav control. And no, I don't mean tell it sad stories. These two actions will lead to the same event. Now you're at the top of your music folder list. Now let's navigate to the artist you want. Obviously, at the start of the list is which ever artist whose name is closest to starting with the letter "A". Hmm...how did I do that navigating thing again ? Oh yeah...up or down. Yes very complicated. Want Richard Wagner ? Push upwards to jet past Z. Want Coleman Hawkins ? Push downward.

With me so far? Great. Confused ? Then go and stare an an aquarium, you may need the therapy. All right, so we've arrived at the artist " Mozart". Again, we have the option of either pushing the nav control to the right, or to push it inward to select this composer. Now, we're looking at all the sub-folders which contain all the albums. Again...push or press, it's up to you. Want to listen to the whole album that you chose ? Then obviously start from the first song and make sure that shuffle or repeat modes aren't set.

All the other stuff such as shuffle and repeat are self explainitory. I don't know how else to make people see just how idiot proof the navigation system is. I guess that if people really just want/need a reason to be down on something, they'll always find a way to go about it.

 

[DLP]

Quote:

Originally posted by PYROTAK so dont' be making gross generalizations about a player that you have not used before. (and even if you have if you think its complicated, again, you are dumb).

The first point I have for you is be very careful how you use the word dumb. You obviously don't know what you're talking about when you use that word in such a childish and ignorant manner.
My other point is don't make stupid comments if you can't read. Look at my sig, see the words "Portable: iHP-120->PX200"? Yes, that means I own an iHP-120. That means I use it on a regular basis. That means I know how it works. But that also means I know that it is more complicated than the iPod. Now, when I say interface, I don't mean the way you navigate your files, which probably means I'm screwing up my terms. I mean how you use the controls to access all the features it has to offer. I mean how the joystick is not tuned very well, and pressing a direction might be registered as pressing the joystick down, which is not what you meant to do. I know that having each button have a second use by holding it down is far more complicated than having everything in a menu you access like you would access your songs. Does it mean it's impossible to learn? No, but for $100 less, why bother if you don't need the other features?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweetspot No offense, but that sentiment is really is played out and not even true if you're comparing the IHP. I'm really tired seeing this nonsense. Just because YOU may have found the IHP's interface complicated, does not mean that the pre-requisite for using one means needing to be a rocket scientist, nor does it mean that retards should buy iPods because they're "easier to use".

Ok, first off, you all seriously need to cool on the retard comments. Watch a woman pushing her 15 year old son in a wheel chair, his body contorted because he doesn't know how to sit like everyone else, drooling because he can't keep his mouth shut, saying nothing and laughing randomly because his brain doesn't process like everyone else, and say that word around her. I damn well dare you.
Secondly, I get this from first hand experience. I am not just repeating what I've read elsewhere. I said nothing about the difficulty of the iHP except that it is more difficult to understand than the iPod. Does that mean it's impossible? No. Stop acting like I'm saying you need a PHD to get it, I said no such thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweetspot Yes, the iPod DOES sound good, and yes, IT IS well made, but this has nothing to do with the IHP.

No, it doesn't directly. What it does though is setup the fact that there is nothing in those areas that the iHP unanimously does better and makes worth the extra $100. In a comparison, it'd be the gray area, the area which neither unit does better or worse.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweetspot So, let's straighten your post out a bit shall we ? Ok... Do you want the recording, the longer battery life, the FM radio, the remote with LCD screen, the optical/line in/out? The plug and play connectivity ? (no need for drivers with OS's over Win 98) The ability to browse your folders as you would on your PC, AND the ability to browse in a data base mode ? Then I'd grab the IHP because it's DIFFERENT from the iPod. Not better, not worse....different. Try staying objective.

Objective? You are no more objective than I am. Your straightening out of my post shows a preference for an iHP. In fact, your "straightening" just states your preference and your reason, hardly objective if you're saying what you want in a player. In my post, I ask if he needs the features that the $100 more gets him, and if not, my suggestion is to get the iPod. Hell, some of those features are deal breakers for me, like the extended battery life and the remote with LCD, which are reasons why I'd personally never get an iPod. But, this isn't about what I'd get, or about what you'd get because you feel the need to be different. It's about the person who asked the question. The best way to answer their question is to present facts, and let them decide for themselves. Given they're asking if an iHP-120 is worth the extra $100, the question has become which is a better value to which suits them (and their wallet) better.

 

[Dster]

When I say 'easy', I mean no manual required. Ever.

Clearly the ihp 100 series is not easy in this sense.

Does anyone here honestly think that they could have discovered/figured out the automatic assignments of presets in FM mode just by fiddling around? Unlikely, even with a fair amount of button pressing.

Now, there is no chance in hell that I would spend more than $100 on an ipod. Why? I prefer to have something with so many features that I *can* read a manual and get a better experience from it.

So, in short: ihp rules, ipod sucks, and the user interface on the ipod is way better. (unfortunately, user interfaces can't record, tune into the radio, give you optical in/out all by themselves).

Note: this reflects the opinion of someone with some amount of technical ability/interest who doesn't have big bags of cash laying around.

 

[Sweet Spot]

Quote:

Ok, first off, you all seriously need to cool on the retard comments. Watch a woman pushing her 15 year old son in a wheel chair, his body contorted because he doesn't know how to sit like everyone else, drooling because he can't keep his mouth shut, saying nothing and laughing randomly because his brain doesn't process like everyone else, and say that word around her. I damn well dare you.

Dude. You are looking in the wrong direction here...the word dumb doesn't always have to be associated with the horrible afflictions which you mentioned that occur in humans that are sometimes born with particular types of retardisim. So stop breaking my heart.

dumb: To keep delaying; to continue to hinder; to prevent from progress; to render more slow in progress; to impede; to hinder; an abnormal slowness of thought or action; also : less than normal intellectual competence usually characterized by an IQ of less than 70 b : slowness in development or progress


Quote:

No, it doesn't directly. What it does though is setup the fact that there is nothing in those areas that the iHP unanimously does better and makes worth the extra $100. In a comparison, it'd be the gray area, the area which neither unit does better or worse.

Well, this may not be true for some people though. Yes, I'm with you...we're talking about those specific features I mentioned right ? Sound and build quality. But to some, including myself, the sound quality may be perceived to be better and worth the extra bill. The sound quality also has to do with the availability of a line out on the IHP. You can't ignore its presence, and the difference it makes. That right there may just be enough to put a lot of people over the top. But even putting that quality aside, and going back to my OP, the iPod STILL doesn't have the features I want, so price is moot.


Quote:

I said nothing about the difficulty of the iHP except that it is more difficult to understand than the iPod. Does that mean it's impossible? No. Stop acting like I'm saying you need a PHD to get it, I said no such thing.

Not ONCE did I find the IHP difficult to understand. I'm not acting like you said anything...I exaggerated the impression you left me with. It helped make a point. I know you said no such thing..I'd have quoted you if you did. (would have been funny if you did though.)


Quote:

Objective? You are no more objective than I am. Your straightening out of my post shows a preference for an iHP. In fact, your "straightening" just states your preference and your reason, hardly objective if you're saying what you want in a player.

If you want to get really technical, do any of us really NEED a DAP ? But Ok, I'll go with what you say, because it SORT OF follows the OP's line of reasoning. Actually, my "straightening" is meant to zap us back into the realms of reality. Because the iPod is NOT $100 cheaper. And then let's say that the iHP didn't have the features we're talking about. How much cheaper do you think the IHP would retail for then ? But ok. let's keep it as it was intended. In that case, you're right....it's more a matter of need. But you also have to care more about price and features more than price and sound quality. Because you KNOW that some people would rather have sound quality over saving a buck...and I'm sure that there are people who think that the IHP sounds better than the iPod.
________________________________________________
@Dster
Quote:

When I say 'easy', I mean no manual required. Ever. Clearly the ihp 100 series is not easy in this sense.

So you associate something being difficult to understand with having to read a couple sentences in a manual ? Yes, the iPods GUI lists its functions, and you scroll to each of them. Yes, simple. But just because the IHP's interface isn't laid out in the same fashion, does not mean that it's difficult once you understand what's going on. And honestly...if a person can't figure it out by fidgeting with the buttons etc...then there's something wrong there.

Quote:

Does anyone here honestly think that they could have discovered/figured out the automatic assignments of presets in FM mode just by fiddling around? Unlikely, even with a fair amount of button pressing.

Not to sound like an a hole...but yes. And I did. I never looked in the manual for that. It's amazing what one can discover just by messin round with the buttons. Memory retention helps. Trial by error. I will admit though, that the function you're talking about is laid out in a very um....idiotic manner.

Believe me, I have no great love for the Iriver programmers. If Iriver had a better programming team, the IHP could currently be the best DAP on the market. A better GUI is possible for sure. A better firmware set is MOST DEFINITELY possible, but instead we get fkd up kareoke support..stupid asses.

 

[Dster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweet Spot Not to sound like an a hole...but yes. And I did. I never looked in the manual for that. It's amazing what one can discover just by messin round with the buttons. Memory retention helps. Trial by error. I will admit though, that the function you're talking about is laid out in a very um....idiotic manner.

Wow. You are really really really smart and patient, too.

For those who don't own ihp-120s or are too lazy to download the manual, here's what Sweet Spot figured out (I still don't believe him):

First, to assign presets, preset mode has to be off. This is done with a short click on the 'Navi/Menu' button. (wow - Sweet Spot figure that out. Seems kind of counterintuitive to me. I guess he tried assigning presets both with and without preset mode on).

Next, you have to press and hold the 'A/B mode' button (long click).

The long click is, let's say, about a second long. Given nine button presses, and options of short clicks and long clicks, and the fact that many functions will take you to different menus etc, I have to offer my sympathy to Sweet Spot for trying stuff out instead of reading the manual. You're right - it's not that hard to read!

Once again.

ihp user interface: hard and counterintuitive. But yes, after 10 minutes and some reading if you're really dumb/impatient like me, you can figure stuff out. After 10 minutes, it's like using Winamp.

ipod user interface: a monkey can use it. Seriously. Can't they follow sign language these days?

But - how many people make this their overriding criteria for a DAP?

As for definition of easy, for better or worse, I still think I'm being accurate.. With respect to electronic components I offer that the definition of 'usable without ever using the manual' is EXACTLY the definition at work in most consumers.

Like VCR manuals didn't have instructions on how to set the clocks..

 

[raynman]

Blah, another slugfest

I'd just like to counterpoint this statement of "When I say 'easy', I mean no manual required. Ever."

Please do yourself a favor and do a search on ipodlounge or better yet stay in touch with the forums there and tell me how many new users are asking for help either a) before they get their ipod b) after they get their ipod.

You'd be suprised at the results. They may not need a manual, but there are hundreds of people asking for help when they first recieve their iPod. I guess there are a lot of people dumber than monkeys?

True, the iHP recieves similar topics on the iRiver forums. This is expected with ALL new electronics. The iPod is by no means an exception.

 

[Sweet Spot]

You're being very childish. Assuming that I'm lying about such a trivial thing goes to show how closed minded you are. You were on spot about me being patient though. Look at the LCD, mess with the buttons...keep track of what gets hilighted and what happens when you do various things.

If you've ever managed to figure something out by a means of deduction, then apply that here. If not, then spare me the smart ass routine and drop the subject. I wasn't meaning to be insulting, I only stated what happened. If you have a problem with this, that's not my problem, and most likely not the problem of others either.

EDIT: About your VCR/clock comment..I agree completely ...but at the same time, most of the people who need to look at a manual to set a vcr clock are either old people with NO patience, old people with not a tech saavy bone in their body, lazy people in general, or yes...MORONS.

 

[Dster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweet Spot You're being very childish. Assuming that I'm lying about such a trivial thing goes to show how closed minded you are. You were on spot about me being patient though. Look at the LCD, mess with the buttons...keep track of what gets hilighted and what happens when you do various things.

Look. If you're claiming that you figured out all the functionality of an ihp unit without using the manual, then yes - you're lying. But again, I don't think that fact reflects on the merit of the player at all.

 

[Dster]

Quote:

Originally posted by raynman Blah, another slugfest I'd just like to counterpoint this statement of "When I say 'easy', I mean no manual required. Ever." Please do yourself a favor and do a search on ipodlounge or better yet stay in touch with the forums there and tell me how many new users are asking for help either a) before they get their ipod b) after they get their ipod. You'd be suprised at the results. They may not need a manual, but there are hundreds of people asking for help when they first recieve their iPod. I guess there are a lot of people dumber than monkeys? True, the iHP recieves similar topics on the iRiver forums. This is expected with ALL new electronics. The iPod is by no means an exception.

Wow. I stand corrected. I was basing my comments on the ipod on having used it for 10 minutes or so, and what I've heard. In that case, the ipod has no merits for me over the ihp. I can still see why its curvelicious design is appealing to people, though.

 

[Sweet Spot]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dster Look. If you're claiming that you figured out all the functionality of an ihp unit without using the manual, then yes - you're lying. But again, I don't think that fact reflects on the merit of the player at all.

After I say this, I'm done (with you anyway). I NEVER "CLAIMED" to have figured out ALL the functionality without the manual. We were talking about ONE particular function. Stay focused and don't change things around to make it seem like you've got some edge up on me... As you know, the IHP is loaded with features beyond what we're currently talking about. To even think that an owner of ANY DAP on the market doesn't need to refer to the manual for ANYTHING, is utterly rediculous.

For example, making playlists. It's pretty safe to assume that each DAP on the market uses a different method in order for the user to create or transfer them. For this, it would be most prudent to look at the manual for a couple minutes just to BE SURE. There are numerous examples at this level of relevance, in which the IHP is not singled out. But as far as basic operations go, play, pause, stop, advance , rewind, getting into the main menu...Those can EASILY be figured out. And once you're in the main menu, you fotz around. You see all the different options, and you use your brain to make the connection between features and their association with the modes of operation available. To assume that people don't or can't do this is insulting...but I'm SURE that's not what you're doing right ?

Lastly, just because you may be used to lying to people, or having people lie to you, does not make me a liar. Do not lump me in with yourself or your associates. You should get to know someone before you go making such ignorant statements. Im not mad, just disappointed that we couldn't have a more down to earth conversation.

W/E though. I'm done.

 

[Dster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sweet Spot After I say this, I'm done (with you anyway). I NEVER "CLAIMED" to have figured out ALL the functionality without the manual. We were talking about ONE particular function. Stay focused and don't change things around to make it seem like you've got some edge up on me

I was making the argument that since at least some of the functions require a manual, the ihp interface is not easy. I picked one for the sake of argument. Any one will do. So, we agree about something.

I'm really surprised to hear that the ipod has non-transparent functionality. What are people asking about the most? is it on-the-fly playlists?

 

[CheewyMuffin]

Ok to clarify my post. i dont think the ihp is really an average joe kinda product. mabye more a teenage product like the ipod. For average joes ther eis no software this scares them. They also have to use winamp to make playlists. This also scares them. they dont know what Win amp is. I have a friend with an Ihp 100 and i can use it pretty well. Folder navigation is cool if you a have a folder tree to start with. Most of my friends that bought ipods don't. Its all in a mess and they were so happy when itunes cleaned it for them. I am definatly not saying the Ihp isnt a great product. its a very nice player probably the best, but for alot of people its to complicated not so much the interface but the whole process. my karma can be complicated with ethernet and stuff, but for most people they will just use RMM and never know the difference. Please no one take this as an attack on the Ihp.

 

[Sweet Spot]

Oh Chewy *sigh* (Feel sort of like Han Solo saying that

) This is what you originally said: Quote:

At least for most people the irivers interface is hard. I don't really like it, but its not bad. Its just not as "subliminal" as my Karmas. its for a different kind of consumer.

This is a real contradiction to your current statement: Quote:

i dont think the ihp is really an average joe kinda product. maybe more a teenage product like the ipod

which implies that the IHP is more for a teenager just like the iPod. Sort of putting your foot in your mouth considering that a reason a teen might get an iPod is because it's so easy to use. And where does that comment come from anyway ? Bizarre. What, the Karma isn't such a product because it offers "different" software or an ethernet port or FLAC support ? Not saying you're saying that, but the logic is really out there on that one.


Quote:

For average joes ther eis no software this scares them.

What on earth are you talking about ? For the record, my name is Joe Average ok ? Iriver couldn't have made it any easier for anyone to use...Mac users included. At the moment, I can either list or link you to at least 6 different and very small programs that can sync the IHP and your PC's directory's (both ways if desired) Not to mention a method that needs no software because it is a feature of Windows. It's called Briefcase. And for your information, yes..there IS software. What it enables the user to do (if they choose to not use the file tree method), is update the music data base with one click of the mouse. Want to know what DOES scare me ? Proprietary software ! !

Quote:

They also have to use winamp to make playlists. This also scares them

At this point, I'd like to extend a hand and invite you over to Mistic River so that you can learn about the IHP, rather than making statements which are absolutely false. Winamp is NOT the only way to go. It's only one of. In fact, any playlist editor or media player that can create playlists AND various programs will do. Only one thing needs to be made sure of, which is that the files used to make the playlist have to come FROM the IHP. So that means that the IHP has to be connected to the PC of course. The only media player that seems to corrupt playlists is that virus like Music Match prog. (for the IHP anyway)

Quote:

Folder navigation is cool if you a have a folder tree to start with. Most of my friends that bought ipods don't

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but a greater percentage of the IHP user base we're talking about here, are Windows users right ? And the greater percentage of the iPod owners that we usually talk about are Mac users right ? So what's your point ? File tree navigation is native to Windows, so naturally Windows users are familiar with file tree navigation. And the opposite argument for mac users.

Quote:

Its all in a mess and they were so happy when itunes cleaned it for them

Well naturally !

What do you expect ? iTunes has a way of ordering things by iD tags as many Media library's do, but if you throw a huge assortment of files from one folder into a different file system, this is bound to happen. That's why all my folders are arranged by artist/album/songs. My ripping/encoding program creates the directories for me. I've seen my friends' mac music directory, and of course if there was no iTunes, their music would be in utter disarray ! Plus, I actually LIKE having control over my file arrangement. I'd hate to have a program dictate the way my files and folders should be.

Quote:

for a-lot of people its to complicated not so much the interface but the whole process.

I'd love to know what this "process" is. I mean, it's one thing for someone to have to learn to use a file system they're not accustomed to, but after that, the only thing that would make it difficult, is if the person had a learning disability. And I'm NOT being sarcastic. A normal intelligent person, should be able to learn something new even if there is a learning curve involved. Otherwise, it's just plain laziness or a lack of will to even bother because of personal feelings. (and don't deny that this sort of thing exists with what we're talking about. people are so touchy about these things eh ?

)

And yeah man, I know you're not attacking the IHP...I know you don't have to resort to such silliness. But do attempt to know more about the subject matter for the next post...as said, come over to Mistic if you're truly curious. You know that *I* hang out over at the Riovolution forums.

And speaking of which, I guess you'll be the first riovol member to hear this (from a IHP dude anyway) Edvard Grieg and I have been conspiring to cook up a little something for Karma and IHP users/forum members. It should be very interesting to see if it comes together...I think it's a great idea. You can PM me if you want more info...your input would be valuable anyway.

S.