[ehjie]

This is a very accurate observation.
The Solaris Gold, is an exception.
V. large sound field on all axes, excellent separation, pinpoint imaging.
The multiple voices and instruments are fantastic on them....

The scale of imaging is quite large, too - For an In Ear Monitor. Very impressed...

 

[CT007]

Really headphones, including IEMs don’t do a great job at soundstage and imaging when listening to stereo music. The reason for this is that music is engineered for speaker listening in a room environment. In a room, each ear hears a blend of both the right and left channels in addition to room reflections. When listening on headphones, each ear hears each channel discretely and this completely changes the perception of the stereofield . The result sounds like the channels are hard-panned left and right missing a front or center. Also, you don’t get the natural room reverberation.

And what about non-recorded audio from a live 3D environment, such as a game engine, simulator, etc?

 

[jant71]

Really headphones, including IEMs don’t do a great job at soundstage and imaging when listening to stereo music. The reason for this is that music is engineered for speaker listening in a room environment. In a room, each ear hears a blend of both the right and left channels in addition to room reflections. When listening on headphones, each ear hears each channel discretely and this completely changes the perception of the stereofield . The result sounds like the channels are hard-panned left and right missing a front or center. Also, you don’t get the natural room reverberation.

However, headphones can do an excellent job with binaural content but it requires the headphones are tuned to a certain frequency curve and it will depend on the recording techniques and if it approximates a general HRTF that is close to your own.

One of my favourite iems for spherical soundstage are actually Etymotic. The ER4B was designed for binaural recordings and the ER4 series is still close in tuning.

I’ve been able to use spatial DSP to process stereo and multichannel content and the ER4SR does a great job with this. I’ve found the Waves NX app on iOS to work particularly well with the etys but the app is no longer supported (though it’s free). The app is a bit finicky and sometimes it resets the effect intensity or doesn’t play your files. But it’s worth the hassles. nPlayer of iOS also has Dts-x and on the traditional setting is more like a good crossfeed with some spatial DSP applies.

You should check out Artio stuff and what they do with their WARP tech...

 

[Malfunkt]

And what about non-recorded audio from a live 3D environment, such as a game engine, simulator, etc?

Great question. In such cases the spatial DSP is handled by the game engine. It has taken decades, and there still isn't a standardization to the approach of spatial DSP but this may be changing. With the latest generation of consoles and games, developers have access to very good dsp algorithms and object-oriented audio engines such as Dolby Atmos. I haven't tried the latest PS5 or Xbox, but I imagine a challenge still remains of individual HRTf and headphone frequency curve / transient spectral delay. However, a general HRTf algorithm will work for many people and still allow a gamer to position audio around them, as well as above and below.

IEMs are a bit different, and it is likely that game audio engineers are primarily targeting over-ear headphones as the model. In such cases the HRTf would include a general head model with outer ear shape.

An IEM like an Etymotic, bypasses the outer ear shape and canal elements. It is still possible to record binaural (think of a dummy head with Neumann mics) in which the mics itself is place pretty close to the same spot an Etymotic transducer would be in your ear. Interestingly, as headphone users, listening to an Etymotic is probably the closest all of us can get to remotely hearing the same thing - though maybe bone conduction transducers would be another means.

Anyhow I digress, but spatial audio for games is going to push sound reproduction for headphones even further. It is feasible that one day, object-oriented recording and sound reproduction will allow you to "walk" amongst the recorded musicians. Why do I think this is strong possibility? For virtual reality and augmented reality applications, it will be a necessity for immersion and audio realism. Future technologies may even be able to recreate the very room reverberation of the space you are in using impulse and convolution reverbs. This way you can hear simulated audio that sounds like it is emanating from the space you inhabit.

I remember decades ago people would be wary of touching an EQ. Now it is becoming more widely understood. The next step is understanding spatial dsp and widespread consumer adoption though companies like Apple, Sony, Google, and Microsoft along with wireless headphones will make this de riguer.

You should check out Artio stuff and what they do with their WARP tech...

Very cool! Hadn't heard about this set.

 

[CT007]

Why do I think this is strong possibility? For virtual reality and augmented reality applications, it will be a necessity for immersion and audio realism. Future technologies may even be able to recreate the very room reverberation of the space you are in using impulse and convolution reverbs. This way you can hear simulated audio that sounds like it is emanating from the space you inhabit.

Yeah, I hope so. You'd think audio would be the simpler thing to have mastered by now, but it still seems substandard compared to game graphics. It's hard to even imagine how good game audio could be, since realtime sound physics(reflections, occlusion, decay, dopler, etc) are not even a real thing yet. And then we finally get back to dedicated audio processing cards, but now they actually have something to process. Audio is 50% of the experience, for games, film, etc! But only 50% of that audio is probably mastered so far.

 

[Jitu13]

Yeah, I hope so. You'd think audio would be the simpler thing to have mastered by now, but it still seems substandard compared to game graphics. It's hard to even imagine how good game audio could be, since realtime sound physics(reflections, occlusion, decay, dopler, etc) are not even a real thing yet. And then we finally get back to dedicated audio processing cards, but now they actually have something to process. Audio is 50% of the experience, for games, film, etc! But only 50% of that audio is probably mastered so far.

Part of the reason may have to do with what gamers want. They will want a better graphics in their game than sound. Apart from titles from sound sensitive genre like fps games, audio will always be overlooked over graphics. After all we we process more information through our eyes than ears.

 

[CT007]

Part of the reason may have to do with what gamers want. They will want a better graphics in their game than sound. Apart from titles from sound sensitive genre like fps games, audio will always be overlooked over graphics. After all we we process more information through our eyes than ears.

FPS is exactly where those advanced graphics happen, and where such gamers want those realistic graphics, and realistic sound, for that realistic experience. If you took a poll, I'm not sure what the difference between wanting realistic audio or realistic graphics would be. We've had good graphics forever. So what's the next major bottleneck on realism? Audio. (or physics/animation, if we go that far)

 

[Jitu13]

FPS is exactly where those advanced graphics happen, and where such gamers want those realistic graphics, and realistic sound, for that realistic experience. If you took a poll, I'm not sure what the difference between wanting realistic audio or realistic graphics would be. We've had good graphics forever. So what's the next major bottleneck on realism? Audio. (or physics/animation, if we go that far)

Yes if you take the poll here of course audio will come out first. But think about this, given the choice of upgrading graphics card, and sound card, which one will a gamer upgrade first? That was my point, as long as a game has awesome graphics with great game play, it's all good if the audio is just good enough! On the other hand if audio is superb, but the graphics is just average many gamer will shy away. Of course the game play mechanism plays the biggest role, hence people still plays cs go.

 

[CT007]

if audio is superb, but the graphics is just average many gamer will shy away. Of course the game play mechanism plays the biggest role, hence people still plays cs go.

I am not sure, since a realistic audio experience doesn't exist yet to be able to determine that. Many competitive players always turn graphics down, so they would always choose better audio. CS would be a perfect place to implement realistic sound, since the graphics are "good enough"(and more), but yet it's still not there. All indie games would benefit from it, as well, with low budget graphics, and would even be able to make creative games that rely much more on in-game sound. Horror games, too. I feel like graphics have even plateaued. People in general just don't care about sound that much, is probably the sad reality of the it all. Sigh.

 

[1TrickPony]

Depends on what you're comparing. It's one of the best in soundstage and imaging in the price range.

Oh yeah +1 on the MEST sound presentation: Separation and imaging for days. Just have to sell half a kidney (which may for some can be a good bargain). Soundtracks are epic and immersive.

 

[haci]

This thread is about both large sound stage and 3D holographic imaging. Most of the posts are about size of soundstage. I hear "holographic" imaging a lot and I am not sure I completely understand what it means. Can someone give it a shot and give some examples of IEMs or headphones that demonstrate those properties? I just want to make sure I am understanding the concept properly.

For me, I understand size of sound stage and I understand depth and width and spherical. All of those things make sense to me and I can relate my experiences to those concepts.

I also understand good imaging. And, 3 dimensional imaging also makes sense as you can place voices and instruments in a location on a 3 dimensional map.

What I don't understand is holographic imaging. How is that different than just 3 dimensional imaging?

If I just think about my experiences, I think of my Blessing 2 Dusks. I really like the clarity it provides and the size of the sound stage appears to be somewhat related to that clarity. The imaging is perfect and fixed. To me, this is ideal. I want to hear voices and instruments in their proper place.

I also have the UM Mest. I pair them with a Lotoo PAW S1 due again to clarity. Very large sound stage, but the imaging is different. Whereas the Dusks feel like every instrument has its place. I feel that with the Mest, there is movement and the imaging changes. Is this holographic? Or, my own personal sound delusion?

Lastly, I have Airpods Pro and they recently added Spatial audio. It's a trip and weird. So weird, I don't like it. It definitely has 3D imaging and when I move my head, the image stays in its place rather than re-orienting the stage with my head like everything else does. Is this holographic imaging?

Anyway, that's for any help you can provide in explaining this concept.

I would like to revive this thread and give my 3 cents, because I'm looking for this specific sound in an IEM, and not even sure if it's possible. So views / experiences are welcome.

For me holographic imaging / 3D sound is not related to the placement of instruments, it's about how sounds are treated through time. Here is a concrete example of what I mean:
Have a listen to MFG - Why, the first 30 seconds would be enough. In a holographic presentation , all of what sounds like reverbs should become '3d bubbles'. So for example, the thing in the first three seconds.. Imagine that as a single object first approaching you, then getting away from you. They emerge from a point source, as they approach you they surround you and then they end up at a point some distance from you.

Do you know any IEM capable of doing it?

 

[redrol]

I have one called fat earth which is an open back(front) planar. Problem is its VERY hard to make and tune and I never got it close enough to put in production. But it does stage ultra 3D and swirly around the head.