IEM's with extended treble?

[systemerror909]

I've been using my SF 5 pro's for a several months now, and while i'm very happy with them and the improvements they make in my everyday life, I spent last night listening to my Sennheiser 580/Little Dot mk III setup last night and was spellbound by the differences between the sound. Specifically, my main critique of the SF 5 Pro's was the roll of of treble. Midrange and bass on these IEMs is excellent, but I consider good treble essential for reproducing that "live" sound. I would possibly consider moving to a different set of IEMs, but this problem seems to be consistent across all brands, with only very expensive models having a slightly more extended range. Does anyone have any insight to this issue? Its recently come to my attention that many IEM driver units are derived from, or used in hearing aids. Being in my young 20's I've still got extended hearing up to 20khz. I'm curious whether the roll off of high frequency is due to it not being necessary for hearing aid purposes, or whether these are the theoretical limits of balanced armature technology? Ultimately, I'd really like to see a full range IEM, I'm just confused as to why one doesn't already exist? My SF 5 pro is already a dual driver IEM, how many drivers could possibly be necessary to reach 20khz?

 

[Singapura]

You could try the Shure E500 or E5C. They have excellent mids and highs and three drivers. I realise they are indeed quite expensive. Alternatively you might try a silver IC which will lift the treble somewhat.

 

[audiomagnate]

I don't hear "extended treble" from E500s. IM716s have more extended treble for (recently) about 1/13th the price.

 

[Brewmaster]

Triple.fi's have much better treble than the Super.fi's. Still rolled off compared to 580's, but much better than SF's.

 

[systemerror909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singapura /img/forum/go_quote.gif You could try the Shure E500 or E5C. They have excellent mids and highs and three drivers. I realise they are indeed quite expensive. Alternatively you might try a silver IC which will lift the treble somewhat.

These appear to have a very similar response curve:

Again, I don't think that any particular model is at fault here, it appears to simply be a major shortcoming of the IEM category of headphones, looking even at UE's specs for the uber expensive UE 11 pro, they claim it only goes to 16.5khz. Even though it has 4 drivers!? Is 20khz simply not a possibility?

 

[Jelle Schrijver]

Hi there, the roll of in the highs is a result of balanced armature drivers. So all iem using this technology would have the same problem. Have a lock over at the knowles site and you could see how horrible the frequencie diagrams are. The smooth them out by applying a (air resistence) filter. But i suspect that kills the highs and microdynamics.

But in the defence of Balanced Armature Drivers, the diagram is way smaller dan dynamic drivers, espacially the multiway's like your EU 5. Also the dynamic solution makes the diagram heavy'er which is a problem when reaching those high frequencies.

If can live without weighty bass, have a look at the stax SR001 system

being a small electrostatic driver it can reach high freq. but because of the small diagram, it's limeted in bass pressure. Also it is a completly open format.

An other product that can be interesting are the earmonitors from future sonics. There very hush about there driver. I'm very interested what the really use. But it can be the ticket. Only if it's a normal dynamic driver then i am not sure about them. Let me explain. I personally use a Shure E3 with custom moldings and a B&O A8 fitted with iBuds (caps to bundle sound into my ear). The A8 use a very thin (and thus fast) diagram. For a dynamic driver it's very fast reaveling and can reach highs quite well compared to other dynamic drivers (like my sennheiser HD525). But compared to the E3 (balanced Armature's) the highs sound muddy, but way less agressive then the E3. The problem i guess is that all frequencies have to be produced by 1 dynamic driver. To get pressure full low, the small diagram has to swing a lot to get the air moving. This dempens the highs. Larger diagram headphones, like your sennheiser, have the adventage that, though much heavier diagram, the diagram needs little swing to move air for the lows, and so leaving the highs intact.

An other route is to use at least 2 small dynamic drivers. 1 for the big swing to get the air moving for the bass. And 1 driver that only have to handle the deliquete swings for mids and highs. This is way i am planning to buy in the near future the swing from ohr und more. It's a custom made iem (with excellent noise isolation) with 2 dynamic drivers without (air resistence)filters (it does use a electrical crossoverfilter). Hoping to have the best of both worlds; (micro)dynamics and pressurefull lows of dynamic drivers and the details and highs which the Balanced Armature Drivers are known for. I've started a thread over here to find out if other people had experience with them. But no luck so far.

edit: and mayby use a neurophone with your current iem's to get those ultimate highs

 

[systemerror909]

So it sounds like another good solution would maybe be a hybrid IEM? Dynamic driver for highs, balanced armature for lows? It just amazes me that people are willing to pay so much for sound that is essentially flawed in a very noticeable way. My IEMs are convenient, block noise and sound good enough for the price, but I really wouldn't want to rely on them for critical listening.

 

[Jelle Schrijver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by audiomagnate /img/forum/go_quote.gif I don't hear "extended treble" from E500s. IM716s have more extended treble for (recently) about 1/13th the price.

I've understood that the altic lansing products in this category where rebranded UE's. So it would be strange if it could do better than it's brother...

 

[Jelle Schrijver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by systemerror909 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So it sounds like another good solution would maybe be a hybrid IEM? Dynamic driver for highs, balanced armature for lows? It just amazes me that people are willing to pay so much for sound that is essentially flawed in a very noticeable way. My IEMs are convenient, block noise and sound good enough for the price, but I really wouldn't want to rely on them for critical listening.

What IEM's do you use? You're public profile is sooo revealing

 

[synaesthetic]

The Altec Lansings are actually unique earphones that use the same drivers as the Etymotic IEMs.

The M-Audio IEMs are rebranded UEs.

 

[Jelle Schrijver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by synaesthetic /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Altec Lansings are actually unique earphones that use the same drivers as the Etymotic IEMs. The M-Audio IEMs are rebranded UEs.

i'll bite; what drivers are used by etymotic?? I thought balanced armature and a dens foam as an airresistence filter. Would love to see pictures of ety 4's innerds

And in my diffence

the current IEM of altic lansing are UE.

 

[synaesthetic]

Etys are single driver balanced armature.

 

[systemerror909]

UE SF 5 pro's, listed in my first post. Sorry, i've been real lazy about updating my profile. I use them with an 80gb Apple Ipod classic. My home setup is Senn 580's with a stock Little dot mk III. My comparisons however were strictly using the ipod source, alternating between the senn and UE. I'm happy with the UE because the senns are bulky as Andre the giant and don't block noise, but was suprised comparing the two, because even without an external amp, the senns easily outperformed the UE.

 

[DKaz]

Try the Denon C700. The have great bass impact, band the mids and highs sparkle. I have listened to a lot dynamic and armature IEMs, but I always choose dynamic in the end. They extend much deeper and higher then armatures IMHO.

Denon AH-C700

 

[catscratch]

It doesn't exist. Sorry.

The highest a balanced armature driver goes is 19kHz, at least on paper, in the E500/SE530, but in reality I'm willing to bet that there is very little meaningful output at these frequencies and the audible roll-off starts much earlier than that. I think UE's claims of 16kHz max for the current state of balanced armature technology are more accurate. Westone claims up to 18kHz, but again, I just don't hear it.

The Stax system claims to go up to 20kHz, but audibly it is even more rolled off than my balanced-armature canalphones. Treble really isn't that system's strength, though it is excellent for the money sonically and well above any universal-fit canalphone I've ever heard. It's main focus is the midrange, though it does have a very strong and punchy bass, just not very deep.

I've never heard a single dynamic-driver IEM that I really liked; dynamic drivers of that size simply cannot replicate the kind of inner detail and clarity that you can get with balanced armatures. Admittedly, while I have a lot of experience with balanced-armature IEMs my experience with dynamic-driver IEMs is limited.

As far as buying something that is so obviously flawed and unsuitable to critical listening - I disagree. Yes, it's a flawed sound, and yes, the lack of treble extension is noticeable, especially when it comes to reproducing overtones and harmonics. B-a IEMs always struggle when it comes to tone and texture. But on the whole, they can be very, very good. My ES2 compares quite well to many serious full-size headphones while unamped straight out of my mp3 player. While it's lacking in treble extension, tone, and texture, it has very good detail, excellent speed, good instrument separation, lots of impact, and a truly fluid, involving, magical midrange - the best midrange I've heard out of a balanced-armature IEM by miles. Only the SR-001 system is better in the mids, and not nearly as good as a whole.

I am hesitant to recommend any universal-fit IEM as they're just not worth the money sonically in my opinion, but customs are another matter. They're still not worth the money sonically, but the combination of versatility, comfort, unique fit, and yes, very good sound quality justifies the price as a whole package, and with inexpensive customs like the Livewires on the market I really wouldn't see myself going universal-fit ever again.