[iamdone]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjcha Thanks for the impressions. Does anyone find the Sensas suffer from grainy treble? I've always thought my portable rig was a bit harsh on the highs, and lately, I've been wondering if it was the IEMs. Otherwise, again, thanks for the thoughts. I've also always thought the Sensas weren't as clear as my full sized phones, and gathered they aren't as clear as the UE-10 Pro. I've been tossing around the idea of getting another custom IEM forever. I guess I'm still stuck having to toss around the idea some more, and now need to consider yet a third. Best regards, -Jason

I don't find the sensas gainy straight out of the ipod but I think the ue10 suffers a little from the this. I would say the ue10 sound cleaner and have more details upfront. The sensas still have the detail, it just more in the background. Straight ouf of the ipod, I notice the sensas capture texture better than the ue10 due to the thinker sound and increase bass.

 

[thorrad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjcha Thanks for the impressions. Does anyone find the Sensas suffer from grainy treble?

Funny that you mention it but those were the exact words of a friend of mine who tried out the demo universal fit units that Sensaphonics sent out to me. I have heard it too from some sources but on the iPod and on my Mac I have not. It might also have something to do with the generation of the computer he was using as a source. I have been very happy with mine but I have had to send them back for a refit. (It's agony being seperated from them...) I hope to have them back in my ears (With a full seal in both ears) next week.

I have been following this thread with some great interest. I am pretty much sold on IEMs and love the portability. The reviews have been a godsend. I am happy to have others out there to kick the tires for me on these custom units. I probably will stick with the Sensas but I always like to know what the state of the art is at present. I'll be looking in on this and other IEM threads for a logn time to come....

Thorrad

 

[jjcha]

Thanks guys, I don't hear grainy treble with the Sensas straight out of my iPod or iRiver either, but definitely with the Overture + SR-71. I'm curious if anyone's tried the Sensas with a source/amp known for being detailed/emphasizing the treble?

Best,

-Jason

 

[toaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thorrad It might also have something to do with the generation of the computer he was using as a source.

yeah, that has something to do with...not the generation computer, but the fact he was using a computer at all.

 

[PATB]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjcha Thanks guys, I don't hear grainy treble with the Sensas straight out of my iPod or iRiver either, but definitely with the Overture + SR-71. I'm curious if anyone's tried the Sensas with a source/amp known for being detailed/emphasizing the treble? Best, -Jason

I don't find the sensas having grainy treble straight off the iPod, iPod=>Pocketdock=>SR-71, or Meridian G08=>SR-71/HR-2. I do agree that the sensas sound rolled off in the highs compared to the HD650/Zu, but not compared to the HD650/Stock cable. This is just perfect for me because I still use the Zu, I find it too bright at times. The sensas are just perfect.

And mine fit perfect from day one

Several months, trials, and domestic/international travels later, I still love them (thanks to lindrone for his reviews).

 

[toaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digihead Each canalphone has its own benefits and drawbacks and a lot of it merely comes down to personal preferences and the types of music you listen to... Any thoughts?

wow, it's nice to see thoughts from someone who actually owns has a bunch of different high-end canalphones. Thank you.

now, i would like to make a point that i feel is very important.

we all know by now i hope, that reading about specific sound characteristics can be more confusing than helpful. This can be especially true when comparisons are being made between custom iems, with similar technologies, components, and sound.

Unnfortunately, I just don't think it is that helpful to read about another person’s perception of slight variations in sound. Not only do i feel this is due to the obvious fact that it's our ears, not another person's ears, that we listen to music with, but also because there is a very strong psychological component of perception which taints our opinions of different sounds. For instance, after listening to a headphone with very laid back treble, a phone with balanced treble, might sound more harsh than if you had simply first listened to the phone with balanced treble. And vice versa. What is the point here?

The point is that it is likely that all high-end iems sound pretty much the same, based on an aggregate, logical view of all comments made, and taking into account they are all similarly constructed. I am not saying that there are not in fact, very minute sonic differences between them, however, i am saying that i feel these differences are greatly accentuated during the act of comparing. i feel that these differences, in many cases, would not exist if a comparison were not being made. And even if differences do exist here, they are likely so small, that it is really not helpful or useful to justify one custom iem over another based on them.

Comfort, that's a reason to choose one custon iem over another.

Longevity, that's a reason to choose one custom iem over another.

Price, that could be a reason too.

when it comes down to high-end canalphones (i.e. the top offerings from sensaphonics, westone, ultimate ears) I do no see how one can go wrong with any of them. i think it's silly to fret over these little details in posts we read, possibly feeling like we can't make the right decision, or feeling we made the wrong decision after a purchase, or even feeling compelled to buy them all (unless you have the money and an insurmountable curiosity, in which case i say it would be silly not too.)

These picky perceptions we read about custom iems are not worth that much, if anything at all. It is not like we are comparing a low-end open phone to a high-end closed phone here; where true significant technological and sonic differences exist. we are only talking about high-end top offering custom iems. there have been people that say the sensaphonics have less detail than the ultimate ears, while another person thinks the detail between them is equal. some people think the ultimate ears are too harsh, while others feel they are just fine. I think my point is clear. Not only are there different takes about these phones, but there are many different opposing takes on them as well. I think it should be nice to know that since we are only dealing with custom iems, it is likely true that they are all very similar and the notion that one cannot go wrong with any of them should be comforting. Oh well…

Aside from true dissatisfied custom iem owners (who i believe are really only dissatisfied because they think a custom iem will give them an open headphone "open" sound...it will not) I believe that differences and dissatisfaction about custom iems can be attributed to the psychological blurriness that only occurs when multiple iems have been purchased, and an attempt is made to pinpoint sonic differences between two very similar sounding stimuli.

Without attempting to draw comparisons, i believe there is little else to do other than revel in the sonic perfection that any of these canalphones on their own, have to serve up.

 

[digihead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamdone Thanks digihead for that detailed follow up. So what you say the ES3 has more prominant guitars than the RS-1? I find the RS-1 balanced just with an agressive sound and perfect guitars. It seems like the ES3 also shares this agressive sound but leans too much towards the mids? Is this right? One other thing. You mentioned you use the etys P to S cable with the ES3. How does this change the sound? I tried the cable with the sensas and thought it changed it for the worse. I haven't tried it with the ue10 yet. The only reason I tried the cable was to remove the hiss from my PPA amp but I have since bought the SR-71 and the ue10 came afterwards, so I never had a hiss problem with this combo.

I'll have to do more of a head to head comparison of the ES3 and RS-1. My initial thoughts are that the mids are more prominent in the mix at times on the ES3 than the RS-1 but I need to compare them directly. More to come.


The Ety P to S cable has a cool effect when used with the SR-71. I now can really understand the meaning of instument separation and the effects of a black background. Although this sounds kind of crazy, it tends to give the music more of a three dimensional effect and kind of draws you into the music itself instead of just listening to the music being played. It gives the effect of hearing each musician more in their own space vs. just being a part of the music itself. Hopefully at least one person out there won't think I'm crazy in my description here. It also tends to smooth out the sound slightly and lends more of a sense of balance to the music as well.

Without the SR-71 I actually prefer the ES3s without the P to S cable. Doesn't really do much for the sound. I did try the cable with the UE10 pros and I did not think it sounded very good. Seemed to kind of muffle the sound overall. To me there was no advantage in using the cable. I will try it again, however, just to confirm my initial thoughts.

 

[jjcha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PATB I don't find the sensas having grainy treble straight off the iPod, iPod=>Pocketdock=>SR-71, or Meridian G08=>SR-71/HR-2.

Honestly, I didn't either. Which is why I blamed the harsh highs on the Overture for a long time. But I'm not so sure what's causing the harshness anymore, as the Overture/SR-71 does just fine with my other phones, even the very bright Sonys. But I suspect the Qualia/SA5k just are better at the highs than the Sensaphonics.

Best,

-Jason

 

[digihead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by toaster22 wow, it's nice to see thoughts from someone who actually owns has a bunch of different high-end canalphones. Thank you. now, i would like to make a point that i feel is very important. we all know by now i hope, that reading about specific sound characteristics can be more confusing than helpful. This can be especially true when comparisons are being made between custom iems, with similar technologies, components, and sound. Unnfortunately, I just don't think it is that helpful to read about another person’s perception of slight variations in sound. Not only do i feel this is due to the obvious fact that it's our ears, not another person's ears, that we listen to music with, but also because there is a very strong psychological component of perception which taints our opinions of different sounds. For instance, after listening to a headphone with very laid back treble, a phone with balanced treble, might sound more harsh than if you had simply first listened to the phone with balanced treble. And vice versa. What is the point here? The point is that it is likely that all high-end iems sound pretty much the same, based on an aggregate logical view of all comments made, and taking into account they are all similarly constructed. I am not saying that there are not in fact, very minute sonic differences between them, however, i am saying that i feel these differences are greatly accentuated during the act of comparing. i feel that these differences, in many cases, would not exist if a comparison were not being made. And even if differences do exist here, they are likely so small, that it is really not helpful or useful to justify one custom iem over another based on them. Comfort, that's a reason to choose one headphone over another. Longevity, that's a reason to choose one headphone over another. Price, that could be a reason too. when it comes down to high-end canalphones (i.e. the top offerings from sensaphonics, westone, ultimate ears) I do no see how one can go wrong with any of them. i think it's silly to fret over these little details in posts we read, possibly feeling like we can't make the right decision, or feeling we made the wrong decision after a purchase, or even feeling compelled to buy them all (unless you have the money and an insurmountable curiosity, in which case i say it would be silly not too.) These picky perceptions we read about custom iems are not worth that much, if anything at all. It is not like we are comparing a low-end open phone to a high-end closed phone here; where true significant technological and sonic differences exist. we are only talking about high-end top offering custom iems. there have been people that say the sensaphonics have less detail than the ultimate ears, while another person thinks the detail between them is equal. some people think the ultimate ears are too harsh, while others feel they are just fine. I think my point is clear. Not only are there different takes about these phones, but there are many different opposing takes on them as well. I think it should be nice to know that since we are only talking about custom iems, it is likely true that they are all very similar and the notion that one cannot go wrong with any of them should be comforting. Oh well… I believe most of the differences people talk about when it comes to high-end canalphones, can be attributed to the psychological blurriness that only occurs when we attempt to differentiate between two very similar sounding stimuli. Without attempting to draw comparisons, i believe there is little else to do other than revel in the sonic perfection that any of these canalphones on their own, have to serve up.

Wow - I think you make some really excellent points here. This is what I was trying to briefly convey in my original post. All of these custom IEMs at this price point really are kick ass. End of story. I often think that the best situation to be in is the one that Toaster is in - he's found the sound he likes and has no desire to try something else.

I know for me that at the end of the day I could walk away with any of the three of these IEMs and be satisfied. There isn't a perfect headphone - a one size fits all. Its all about what people enjoy in sound and the emotion that sound conveys when you listen to it.

The difficulty with choosing an IEM at this level is the price, the committment to that particular IEM (no return policy) and the inability to trial the IEM prior to purchase. In that regard, having pepole's opinions to read who actually owns the IEMs can be helpful. Here too, when I was initially deciding which one to get, I PM'd with several folks who had either the UEs or the Sensas and it really came down to the fact that you really can't go wrong with either one (and I'd put Westone in there now too).

The difficulty for me in this has been struggling to get a good fit over a long period of time. It has deifnitely made the process much longer. And the waiting is always the hardest part. I need to send in my UE10s to have a couple of spots smoothed down and then hope to just kick back and listen to the music play....after all, that's what its really about.

 

[Blitzula]

Quote:

Originally Posted by digihead The thing I have noticed about the ES3 over a little bit more time is the prominence of the mid range, particuarly on some music. At times it is very prominent/loud relative to the other parts of the sound spectrum. It has its benefits and drawbacks. Benefit being a clear midrange and the ability to hear guitars, etc. really as I've never heard them before since they have such a prominence in the overall mix. The drawback is that at times this prominence makes me want to turn down the volume during certain parts of the song. I have been wondering whether the ES2 would provide a more balanced sound while still offering the same level of detail and midrange clarity. It seems that Westone is now telling people to order the ES2 for personal listening as it will not have the same level of midrange prominence. Unfortunately I was not aware of this fact when I ordered the ES3s. Westone offered to make me a pair of ES2s instead, however if they are indeed cheaper than the ES3s then I would likely be absorbing that difference. Also a tough call b/c I could end up with the ES2, not like it as much as the ES3 and then be stuck. I have been going back and forth on the ES3s. This morning quite honestly I could not have imagined getting a better sound from any IEM and found myself wondering why I would even consider the ES2. Yesterday, the midrange prominence was leading me to consider the ES2. Part of what sucks with these IEMs is there is no way to try them and its kind of all or nothing. I could definitely see why the ES3s would be great for guitarists using them for on stage monitoring. I could hear Dave Navarro (Jane's Addiction Strays CD) playing the guitar like he was eight feet in front of me and he was absolutely tearing it up. I have never been able to hear his guitar playing like that. It was really cool. Should I risk losing this for a more balanced sound? Would I still get the same level of excitement, clarity, detail and sound from the ES2 while getting a better sense of balance? Would I miss the cool effect of the ES3? Don't know and need to noodle on it for a while to come up with a path forward. If I had more disposable income it would be great to just buy a pair of ES2s and then I would know for sure. Unfortunately this is not an option. Any thoughts?

I say go for the ES2! That way, I can seriously consider buying the one you like better! Ok, admittedly, not an altruistic reason....

 

[gords]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blitzula I say go for the ES2! That way, I can seriously consider buying the one you like better! Ok, admittedly, not an altruistic reason....

lol

 

[machead]

Quote:

Originally Posted by random person Is Sensaphonics sympathetic to your issues? Are they willing to keep working with you until you get them right? And since your issues relate to fit rather than personal sound preferences, will they refund your money if they can't be made to seal properly without discomfort?

Sensaphonics states on their web site that "There are no refunds on any custom made products", so as far as I'm concerned they have no option but to keep remaking my IEMs until I'm happy with them. I thought I had come close to a bail-out offer after the third attempt but Sensaphonics decided instead to refer me to their other sanctioned audiologist in the New York City area. (I'm amazed they have only two for so large a city.) Essentially, this was a "start again from scratch" approach.

My bottom line is that the Sensas have to be as comfortable, and to seal as effectively, as my universal fit Etys and Shures. I can't make an issue of sound quality, other than to the extent this is attributable to lack of fit, because I don't expect Sensa to change the drivers and/or crossover to suit my taste!

I will say that they have been flexible in their interpretation of the 30 day return period and I sense that their patience is at least as good as mine. They have a reputation to uphold and, by all accounts, they have a great many satisfied customers; so I don't think they would risk it by taking a hard line with the occasional difficult case. I like to think that it can be a valuable learning experience for all concerned. I was impressed when Sensaphonics insisted that the second audiologist give me a standard hearing test (at no cost to me).

I have not had much contact with Sensaphonics directly, preferring to explain my problems to the designated audiologists and relying on them to translate for me. As I mentioned in a previous post, neither of them is an audiophile; so I have to put up with being judged by the standards of performing musicians, who face a different set of priorities. For them, hearing protection is paramount as they operate in a much louder environment than that to which I would willingly subject myself. Explaining the importance of accurate balance in the simulation of a convincing soundstage is definitely an uphill battle!

I want to like my Sensas. As a regular train commuter and occasional air traveler, I derive a lot of enjoyment from my iPod, SR-71, and canal phones. I accept that even if the current fit problems can be overcome, I may still prefer the sound of the ER4S or E5c. I just want to be able to make that judgment on an even playing field.

 

[random person]

Hi machead--

I am glad to hear that Sensaphonics is trying to be helpful, and I am hopeful they will resolve your fit issues soon.

You bring up an interesting point, though -- and that is that the vagaries of fit have a remarkable impact on how one experiences the sound of these custom IEMs. On that basis alone, it is difficult to analyze various Headfier preferences, as so much of the variation in experience may be attributable to fit alone. This is of course true both for comparisons across IEM brands, as well as for evaluation of how a particular model sounds from refit to refit. It is all a murky business.

While I wouldn't go so far as Toaster does in suggesting that there are only minor differences between these various IEMs (after all, most of us haven't tried them all, and won't, so there's no way to really test that hypothesis) I would say that it is certainly clear that getting the fit right is at least as important as the selected brand and model in insuring an excellent experience. Also, judging by Headfi enthusiasm across the board for these custom IEMs, it is also clear that for the most part the consensus is that these products represent a true audio breakthrough with plenty of "Wow factor."

Oh and Toaster -- given Stereophile's review, and the fact that both Jerry Harvey AND lindrone prefer the UE5c over the UE10Pro for Ipod use, you should be sure to include the UE5c along with the UE10 in your list of "high end canalphones." I continue to believe, based on my own experience (but without comparing them, obviously!) that the UE5c is in the same league and certainly provides a terrific audio experience and value for the price.

In any case it's nice to see thoughtful and civilized commentary about UE, Sensas, and Westones in the same thread. While I sometimes miss the sheer blood lust of the "Sensa/UE wars" I'm also happy that Headfi has mellowed out a bit on this issue. Maybe the bloodlust had a lot to do with Toaster's point that major or minor sonic differences aside, these are all great 'phones -- and we all want to defend the ones we've personally experienced, and share the joy!

 

[iamdone]

I interpretted the 30 days return policy to only mean the time limit on your first fit issue return. I would then think you have another 30 days to test the fit on each return.

Sensaphonics also has a 6 month return (1 year for ue) for technical issues. I had one fit issue and two technical issue (driver shorted out, pinched tubes) with the sensas. So far problem free with the ue's.

 

[iamdone]

As far as sonic differences, I personally think the ue10 and sensas have less than a 5% difference. I've mentioned they are very similar. I'm sure I could have been happy with just the sensas since I was looking more for a Grado style iem and neither the ue or sensas satisfy that. The ue10 does satify that little bit of extra detail I was looking for (being a former ety user). I guess the ES3 might be in my future.

Maybe I'll just wait for the Schick Quattro Driver IEM with a lubricating strip for easier fit.