[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco There are two possible causes for what you are hearing. The first one is that the specs published by Panasonic are untrue.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have access to the proper test equipment so I don't know. Funny thing is my parents have another Panasonic CD/DVD player in their home entertainment system, different model, same specs. I've tried it out with my headphone system and the sound is somewhere between my Panasonic & Denon.

Quote:

The second one is that you have to remember that the live sound you heard is coloured by the microphones, the EQ of the sound guy, etc. I do live sound for a band of friends, I can make anything sound different than on stage with a bit of mic placement, EQ and effects. Maybe the Denon's technical incapacities compensate in a good way for all the coloration added during the recording of that live performance? And that the Panasonic actually sound "more accurate" to what the soundman was listening to when he mixed that live album ?

I'm well aware of that, in fact I mentioned the frequency balance is different because they EQ'd it, and they also upped the volume of the vocals a bit in the mix. I've heard this CD on about 8-9 systems now, ranging from craptastic to better than I thought was possible. The craptastic ones screw up various things, the good systems make it sound like the live concert but with more even sound. BTW, somehow I very much doubt Bob Ludwig of Gateway Mastering would dick over a recording so it sounds like ass, and at the same time somehow manage to have it sound good on high-end system.

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco We are at the very end of a technical expansion and limits about chip integration, digital systems, communication networks, etc. In not too long (10, 20 years) we will be at the top of what we can currently do with the techology that's here. Then there will be the quantum CPUs, the Quantum amplifiers (lol) etc....atomic physic will rescue us!

Havent you heard about Double Hydroxilated Ion Suspension?

Or Flattergistic Negledistons?

or Sincopated Telesticomy?

Im sure you havent, because they havent been invented yet. You have to come to agreement with me on the fact that there are worlds of technologies that could work, but we have no idea. I mean there are things out there that are unfathomable because they are just so foreign.

For example, I read somewhere that dog's sense of smell is like 500,000 times better than ours. Try imagining what that is like! We have no idea. YET it IS possible, it occurs on a dog, no less. I mean they must have a whole 3d world around them with smells, like our world of vision.

I guess im just saying that there is ALWAYS more than meets the eye. There is so much about the world we live in, the things we eat, the places we go, the bed we sleep on, that we dont know anything about. We can say that these things dont exist becaused we havent discovered, or proved them to exist yet, but that doesnt mean they arent there.

Take Radio Waves for example. We can't see them. If someone would have said they were there before mankind discovered them, we would think he was nuts. But now that we have discovered them, they are common knowledge.

Or, think of some guy way back in the day, who gets radiation poisoning before anyone knew about radiation. Should they have said "Look, nothing exists that could have done this to you. Therefore, nothing is wrong with you"? What then happened when the man died? Did they say "no, nothing could have done this to you, so you are not dead"?

So, coming back to Audio equipment, MAYBE, there are things about the properties of different matterials, etc, etc, that we do not know about, but have an effect. And MAYBE, we can hear this effect, can sense its presence, but cannot proove that it exists.

Should we deny our perception of this effect because it cannot be proven scientifically?

 

[eastside504]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco What we did at the store is put 3 different players through the same setup. A Sony typical regular CDP, a NAD CDP and the LINN. I didn't make ANY comment on the general sound of the LInn, since I didn't try it at home. Still I can tell that I heard no difference between the NAD and the Linn and even if I wanted really hard, I can't say there was a definite difference between the Sony and the Nad or Linn.

OMG so you are basing all your opinion on the fact that you did a little listening at a store? I credit your opinion becuase i thought you had these as your equipment and had spent time with them to become familiar with them. But to make such judgement and statement base solely on listening at a store is just ridiculous. Philidox ask you to fill your profile not to judge you by our equipment but for your experince. Now we see that you have none!

 

[Philco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastside504 OMG so you are basing all your opinion on the fact that you did a little listening at a store? I credit your opinion becuase i thought you had these as your equipment and had spent time with them to become familiar with them. But to make such judgement and statement base solely on listening at a store is just ridiculous. Philidox ask you to fill your profile not to judge you by our equipment but for your experince. Now we see that you have none!

Do you really think it takes me $10000 of budget, some years of time to make my mind about something? My goal was not to judge the 3 players completely (performance, functionnality, ease of use, general tone) but to compare the sound of the 3 of them. Can you understand that I don't need a lot of experience with these 3 players to compare their sound head to head.

I agree that to make my mind completely about a piece of gear, you need to buy it, but that was not my goal.

Tell me why are you so arrogant? Why are you judging me and say I have no experience when you don't know jack about it? I don't have $100000 worth of gear, that doesn't mean I have no experience. ONCE AGAIN...you judge experience by the gear people own...this is WRONG! I have lots of experience in sound, I am a studio recording engineer and a live soundman and I'm afraid you are judging me too fast because I don't buy any audiophile crap and that my opinion differs from yours.

 

[eastside504]

I think its you who are judgemental. You seem to think that anyone who spent ridiculous (its all relative) money is stupid becuase everything can be judge base solely on specs. I'm not trying to tell you that more money = better sound. What i'm trying to tell you is that everything can not be judge solely on specs and numbers. Dont use your limited experience to make blanket statements and expect other people who have different experience to agree and if they dont its becuase they got the wool over their eyes. Its funny that now you ask for us to repect your opinion when its was you who call other people's opinion as voodoo and snake oil. Audiophile is not a dirty term as you would like to use it. This is my last response to you so you can have the last word in and hope that you make it count. Enjoy your music as i sure will enjoy my magical headphone and amp.

 

[Andrea]

In a way, I understand the position of Philco here. But rather than calling science in support of it, I'd follow the lines of rationality & sobriety.
It's pretty realistic to say that a majority of 'high-end' audio devices are sold at prices way, waay overblown with respect to the actual 'performance' (in an ample sense). They're made with kind of a 'status symbol' mindset in the first place, 'adorned' with conspicuous aesthetic luxury in a humorous attempt to justify the hyperbolic prices. There's a considerable amount of dullness and 'kitch' in consumer audio as the extremes are approached - both extremes. A questionable attitude that is stagnant on both the side of industry and that of users. Which is also what repels the younger people (for one, me). On the other hand, in a discouraging scenario, the 'headphone galaxy' looks like a valuable last resource for the more 'down to earth' music lovers.

(feel free to flame or extol

)

 

[Mastergill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco I have lots of experience in sound, I am a studio recording engineer and a live soundman and I'm afraid you are judging me too fast because I don't buy any audiophile crap and that my opinion differs from yours.

Now that's getting interesting, because i never heard a Audio Engineer pulling so much crap in a so short time. Usually you listen first with your EARS and after you check the specs to see the correlation respect to what you HEARD.

OK, i know i'm wasting my time with a troll, but in case i'm totally wrong about you, could you please mention a few pieces of gear you're using in your studio? Like what kind of $500 AD or DA converters you have that perform as good as $5,000 high-end one. I'm sure a pro like you can help me save a lot of money.

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco This world is really "dull" to me, that's true, but that's the way things are, all scientific. I don't believe in religions, love, anything that is NOT science driven. That's the nature of scientists I guess.

Sorry to say this, but you're beginning to sound like a real phony. I've never heard any scientist who said "I don't believe in love, because it's not science-driven." Are you saying scientists don't love their families and spouses because there's something unscientific about it? That's just plain idiotic.

Perhaps you're playing 'devil's advocate', like I was on another thread (related to power cords). If so, I suggest you get off the playing field, because you're not up to the challenge.

People, I think this guy is a classic troll.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco I'm full of crap because my opinion differs than yours and I am entitled to it? Nothing's wrong with this according to me.

No, because of the way that you are presenting your arguments. You are the one that is insisting that your view is right and everyone elses is wrong, not the other way around. Most of the people that are arguing with you here are doing so not to convert you, but to get you to open up a bit and loose some of these extreme biases that you are carrying around. Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco Why do you want to change my personal opinion?

I don't, read my comments above. Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco When I started chatting here, I came to the conclusion (it didn't take long!) that most people here are so called audiophiles that classify equipment in "low-fi" "mid-fi" and "high-fi". In my mind, by today's standard, there is nothing but HI-FI and when you call Sony players as "mid-fi" it seems to me all you are is a so-called audiophile that makes fun of categorizing equipment. This is the kind of "snobism" that drives me insane. It makes me want to start making money over you guys and start my own custom cable and amps company lol....

I'm sorry that those terms offend you. It is a way of classifying components based on price and performance. Get over it.

I did not call Sony mid-fi, I was referring to Nad and Rotel. They generally make components that are considered mid-fi. Again, I am sorry if this term does not sit right with you. Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco I sure misunderstood, cause the equipment I possess tells NOTHING about my knowledge and about the validity of my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eastside504 So you are basing all your opinion on the fact that you did a little listening at a store? I credit your opinion because I thought you had these as your equipment and had spent time with them to become familiar with them. But to make such judgment and statement base solely on listening at a store is just ridiculous. Philidox ask you to fill your profile not to judge you by our equipment but for your experience. Now we see that you have none!

Eastside has apparently understood what I was getting at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco This world is really "dull" to me, that's true, but that's the way things are, all scientific. I don't believe in religions, love, anything that is NOT science driven. That's the nature of scientists I guess.

You don't believe in love? That is just sad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco Tell me why are you so arrogant? Why are you judging me and say I have no experience when you don't know jack about it?

Are you serious? Maybe you are.

Listen. You come in here and call audiophiles stupid and basically say that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Are you surprised at our reaction?

 

[aerius]

I thought about Philco's claims a bit last night and realized that we're all going about it the wrong way. Since he claims the following:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco I can tell how a CDP sounds by looking at specs, OF COURSE I CAN!

Well, what can I say other than "prove it".
Listed below are the specs and measurements for a CD player. Philco, your job is to tell us all how it sounds. Will it accurately reproduce the bottom register of a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand piano? How about the tone of a 1927 French fiddle made by Marc LeBerte? Will the wood tones be right? Will the strings sound screachy or not? Can it it accurately reproduce the acoustics of a church? How about a jazzclub, a concert hall, or an open air amphitheatre? Will it get the proper attack of a snare drum? Can it distinguish between closely tuned tom-toms? Tell us all how this CD player sounds based on the specs & measurements.

If you can't do this, I'm gonna call BS on everything you've said.

Specs & Measurements
Frequency response: 10Hz-20kHz, +0.1dB, -0.5dB.
Output level: 2.0V RMS at 1kHz.
Output impedance: 10 ohms max.
Phase response: linear phase, absolute-phase correct.
De-emphasis: ±0.25dB referred to main response.
Distortion and noise: ±0.1%, 10Hz-18kHz at full level.

 

[Philco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aerius Specs & Measurements Frequency response: 10Hz-20kHz, +0.1dB, -0.5dB. Output level: 2.0V RMS at 1kHz. Output impedance: 10 ohms max. Phase response: linear phase, absolute-phase correct. De-emphasis: ±0.25dB referred to main response. Distortion and noise: ±0.1%, 10Hz-18kHz at full level.

Asked so nicely, hard not to answer this

The NAIM CD5 is actually a quite pricey CDP. One should expect great performance at this price point

1) The Specs and Measurements

What can be said about those is that the phase accuracy is perfect, the output impedance is very low, but the THD+N seems a little high at first glance, but since it represents the full band at full level mesurements, it's quite okay.

2) The Graphs

Linearity is good up to -90dB, the frequency response is a little short on the high-end (which is to be expected for 44.1kHz sampling freq.) and also a little short on the low end, which may mean they misdesigned some bypass capacitors somewhere. The Jitter, intermodulation and spectrum analysis figures are very good, though the latter shows signs of relative weakness when put into 600 ohms. Digital Black results are also excellent. The undithered 5kHz square wave looks quite ugly, but it's okay since at -90.31dBFS undithered, most cheap (50$) CDPs would put out pure ****.

NOW....What does all that say about the tone ? Here is my answer to each of your questions:

1) Will it accurately reproduce the bottom register of a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand piano?

I don't know about this particular piano, but according to the specs, it should fall a little short in this area.


2) How about the tone of a 1927 French fiddle made by Marc LeBerte?

This should be very good sounding (but see remarks on the strings below)


3) Will the wood tones be right?

The wood tones should be very good.


4) Will the strings sound screachy or not?

High strings might sound a little screechy and/or have a timbre that isn't that natural.

5) Can it it accurately reproduce the acoustics of a church?

As long as the recording is honest to the original acoustics, I think yes it can accurately reproduce those.


6) How about a jazzclub, a concert hall, or an open air amphitheatre?

Same as above.


7) Will it get the proper attack of a snare drum?

It all depend on the type of snare used. The attack should be no problem for rock and blues snares but the promptness of the tone will be a little lacking on jazz or fusion snares.


8) Can it distinguish between closely tuned tom-toms?

Absolutely if you are outputting into 100k. You could have trouble when outputting into 600 ohms though.


9) Tell us all how this CD player sounds based on the specs & measurements

Well, this CDP offers excellent performance, given its price, it's no surprise. It has some shortcomings as far as step response, low and high freq. response and a little intermodulation problem, but all in all, it IS an excellent sounding CDP.

 

[morphie]

I think you know damn well what youre talking about... you just have ****** hearing.

 

[Andrea]

Philco -- at any rate, you're pushing your scientific fervour well beyond its legitimate space. Such a cause is lost in the start.

 

[aerius]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco NOW....What does all that say about the tone ? Here is my answer to each of your questions: 1) Will it accurately reproduce the bottom register of a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand piano? I don't know about this particular piano, but according to the specs, it should fall a little short in this area.

And it does, very few CD players can get the bottom end of a Bösendorfer right, the bass notes have a fuller & more complex tone than the typical Steinway Grand.

Quote:

2) How about the tone of a 1927 French fiddle made by Marc LeBerte? This should be very good sounding (but see remarks on the strings below)

It isn't.

Quote:

3) Will the wood tones be right? The wood tones should be very good.

And this is where it goes wrong.

Quote:

4) Will the strings sound screachy or not? High strings might sound a little screechy and/or have a timbre that isn't that natural.

No screachyness, but you are correct the tone isn't right.

Quote:

5) Can it it accurately reproduce the acoustics of a church? As long as the recording is honest to the original acoustics, I think yes it can accurately reproduce those.

It can't. It does not do large reverberant spaces well. Echoes do not fade naturally and it gets all confused. The Cowboy Junkies' "Trinity Sessions" CD will show how it screws things up.

Quote:

6) How about a jazzclub, a concert hall, or an open air amphitheatre? Same as above.

Yes, no, and yes. As mentioned above, it does not like large reverberant spaces. Though a concert hall is nowhere near as echoey as a church, it still has a large natural soundfield which trips up the CDP.


Quote:

7) Will it get the proper attack of a snare drum? It all depend on the type of snare used. The attack should be no problem for rock and blues snares but the promptness of the tone will be a little lacking on jazz or fusion snares.

Mostly correct. Fine on most rock, suffers from lack of sharpness on the rest.

Quote:

8) Can it distinguish between closely tuned tom-toms? Absolutely if you are outputting into 100k. You could have trouble when outputting into 600 ohms though.

Yup, though in my my experience anything other than crap like my Panasonic can do it.

Quote:

9) Tell us all how this CD player sounds based on the specs & measurements Well, this CDP offers excellent performance, given its price, it's no surprise. It has some shortcomings as far as step response, low and high freq. response and a little intermodulation problem, but all in all, it IS an excellent sounding CDP.

Yes, and no. It has lots of detail, but has issues with soundstage and especially tone. Tone is something that's hard to get right, my CD players don't, and there aren't many that do.

Question: How'd you find out it was a Naim CD5? I thought I sanitized the graphs pretty well.