I just got an Audioengine D1 and it's sounding the same as standard line out to me

[Phybron]

I honestly can't tell the difference between basic headphone line out and the D1, which I've set up with optical out and 96Khz/24-bit in Audio MIDI Setup. Source is a 2009 Mac Pro; ALAC files via iTunes.

I'm using Audio-Technica ATH-A900 headphones. Am hitting a ceiling on the headphones, where they're not going to pick up any more detail no matter what drives them? Or is the sound output on the Mac Pro already pretty high quality? 

More listening and the only discernible difference to me is the absence of any background hiss with the D1. The headphones are 40Ω , so hiss is noticeable on the line out. With my 16Ω IEM's it's really bad. Is it worth keeping the D1 for that?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

...which I've set up with optical out and 96Khz/24-bit in Audio MIDI Setup. Source is a 2009 Mac Pro; ALAC files via iTunes.

 

That's not really going to make any difference, even if your computer is applying up- and oversampling. There was a test conducted before but I can't find anywhere that basically found that consumer electronics, and that includes high end CDPs, that up- and oversample signals do sound different than playing the 16/44.1 files with mild oversampling, but when measured actually turns out that the difference is due to noise and distortion introduced by the processing (vs the 24/96 high res studio copy).

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I honestly can't tell the difference between basic headphone line out and the D1...

I'm using Audio-Technica ATH-A900 headphones. Am hitting a ceiling on the headphones, where they're not going to pick up any more detail no matter what drives them? Or is the sound output on the Mac Pro already pretty high quality? 

 

I'll phrase that another way - the MacPro isn't bad, but ultimately the A900's impedance isn't too high nor is its sensitivity too low for the Mac. In fact, it's quite the opposite - it's too high that it hisses like some IEMs. If you were using a lower sensitivity headphone or one with much higher impedance (250ohms and up), there's a chance even the D1 can have some trouble vs a DAC-HPamp not too far above its price range, like the AudioGD NFB-15.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

More listening and the only discernible difference to me is the absence of any background hiss with the D1. The headphones are 40Ω , so hiss is noticeable on the line out. With my 16Ω IEM's it's really bad. Is it worth keeping the D1 for that?

 

Well, that depends - how much do you like the hiss? That's not music, so why listen with it in the way?

 

That said, I'd still much rather get something like the NFB-15 rather than the D1, since it will have more flexibility in terms of what headphones it can drive with relative ease, and basically you can upgrade (or just get another one, like an open-back headphone) at some point without worrying too much about what you drive it with. Maybe put up with the hiss now and send the D1 back, and then later get the NFB-15.

 

[Phybron]

Thanks! That was very helpful. Having spent a bit more time with the D1 I can still not hear much of a discernible difference between it and the line out. I tried adjusting the output sampling and, again, I'm not noticing anything changing. It does, however, sound better driving the A2 speakers I have. Also, now that I have experienced life without that background hiss, there is no going back to the line out. 
 
I had not heard of AudioGD before. I'll have to do some research. Would it be fair to say that their barebones website belies some quality and value that I'm not going to get elsewhere? I don't mind paying a bit more for quality. I got the D1 for $135 as a refurb. I was also under the impression that it would be able to drive up to 300

Ω headphones. Is that not the case? There's a good chance that I'll upgrade the A900's at some point.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

It does, however, sound better driving the A2 speakers I have.

 

It's not driving the A2, which has its own amplifier built into the Master speaker. The D1 just moves the DAC that does the decoding into it instead of the one in the Mac, and in the process uses the analog circuit of the D1 as well. That includes giving you a volume knob on the D1 which is likely easier to reach than the one on the A2's Master.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I had not heard of AudioGD before. I'll have to do some research. Would it be fair to say that their barebones website belies some quality and value that I'm not going to get elsewhere? I don't mind paying a bit more for quality.

 

They basically spend a lot more on the hardware and less on the website, on top of ditching the middleman - you conduct business directly with them so there's no dealer that has to maintain a physical location (even a web dealer elsewhere has to account for warehouse/storage rental) and instead every item just ships directly from China.

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I got the D1 for $135 as a refurb. I was also under the impression that it would be able to drive up to 300

Ω headphones. Is that not the case? There's a good chance that I'll upgrade the A900's at some point.

 

It "can," the question is "how well." Looking at hte specs they didn't even publish output power at any impedance. They quote Total Harmonic Distortion, but not at what impedance and output level. Those three always go together because for example you might have an amp that outputs 250mW at 32ohms with 0.00025% distortion, but you never know if it might output 10mW at 300ohms with 0.0025% distortion. In some cases a manufacturer may quote 50mW at 300ohms, but doesn't tell you that it's already at 2.5% distortion because its distortion ratio may rise faster than output and impedance (it's just a question of what kind of distortion that is).

 

By contrast the NFB-15 outputs 300mW and 10volts RMS at 300ohms. You're not going to use all that realistically but those figures AFAIK were quoted at relatively low distortion levels - that means that for only $250+shipping you can have a DAC and amplifier that can drive most headphones cleanly and has a lot of reserve power on top for dynamic passages that it can use without getting any audible distortion.

 

[Phybron]

Well given I am underwhelmed with the D1 I think I should probably return it. I've skimmed through one of the 60-page NFB15 threads and it sounds mostly good, apart from some reports of overheating, static noise and sticky volume buttons. That said, I can't see a better alternative at the moment. As my computer has the optical out I might as well use it; not all amp/DAC's have an optical in. And I need to connect (not drive) the A2's, so I need RCA or line outs for that. 
 
The whole AudioGD site looks sketchy, but it looks like people have had a good experience with them overall. Are there any other alternatives I should be looking at? I also read that they are discontinuing the NFB15 and not replacing it, so maybe there won't even be any left by now. 
 
Thanks for the help!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

The whole AudioGD site looks sketchy, but it looks like people have had a good experience with them overall. Are there any other alternatives I should be looking at? I also read that they are discontinuing the NFB15 and not replacing it, so maybe there won't even be any left by now. 

 

I haven't been following that thread but the NFB-15 got replaced recently - used to be NFB-15.32. So they might have been referring to that.

 

I wouldn't worry about what the site looks like though, the real problem is that there are issues with miscommunication - people expecting instant English response from a Chinese company that has a few interpreters for dozens if not hundreds of emails, or product doesn't work but shipped back by AudioGD because by their testing there's nothing wrong with it, etc. So if you want to avoid having to deal with communications and shipping with China, then you might as well spend more for a more accessible company where you are. Look into Schiit Audio and Meier Audio, as well as JDSLabs.

 

[Phybron]

The site currently says:
 

 Below products last for sale ,no successor .
DI-2014,NFB-15,NFB-10.33, Precision 1, Precision 2.

 
I'll have a look at those alternatives.
 
EDIT: having looked at all of those other companies, none seem to have the combination of features that I need. I'll email AudioGD about the NFB15. If not, I'll keep the D1.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

The site currently says:

 

And like I mentioned it's a Chinese site written by Chinese developers for a parent company that has some difficulty transacting in English. if that came out of Google translate, "no successor" could mean pretty much anything, like "No succeeding batches will be made of the NFB-15" but....

 

1. There will be an NFB-15.xxx whatever new version

2. They will integrate the NFB-15 line (ie Wolfson DAC) with NFB-11 (Sabre DAC), so they'll either have NFB-11W and NFB-11S or something like that

3. It could mean different things for each of those product lines

 

The entry-level, feature-packed, high power amp market is too lucrative for them to totally have "no successor" to the NFB-15 in the sense of not having a product with many features along with a high power amp near that price point.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

EDIT: having looked at all of those other companies, none seem to have the combination of features that I need. I'll email AudioGD about the NFB15. If not, I'll keep the D1.

 

I personally prefer the Meier combo since they put the preamp function for the speakers on the DAC, not the amp. It's usually the latter on separate DAC and amp units since the amp already has a potentiometer, but the Meier stack will let me just power on the DAC and leave the headphone amp off and the headphone plugged in. What's great about AudioGD's later products though is you don't unplug the headphone to use the preamp since they put a switch in front.

 

[Phybron]

Good point, re. end of line on the NFB15. I presumed they'd just sell the NFB11 instead, but any of those alternatives make sense. 
 
As for two Meier components, I'm sure they would be better than my D1, but it's looking like many multiples higher in price, so probably not worth it to drive A2's and A900's. The D1 should improve as it burns in and it has exactly the combination of features that I need: optical in, RCA & headphone out, volume on the front, USB power. I guess I was just surprised that I couldn't detect much of a difference in sound quality straightaway, after reading all the glowing reviews. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

As for two Meier components, I'm sure they would be better than my D1, but it's looking like many multiples higher in price, so probably not worth it to drive A2's and A900's.

 

If you upgrade everything later including a more difficult to drive headphone, might as well factor in something like those in your budget. In the end, and like I said previously, it also depends on where you are - if you're going to get something like the AudioGD NFB-10 and then ship to Europe, the price plus shipping cost and import duties if any might just bring it close to the price of Meier gear, for which product support is easier. If you're in the US then at least the import duty isn't a problem, but of course there's still Schiit.

 

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

The D1 should improve as it burns in and it has exactly the combination of features that I need: optical in, RCA & headphone out, volume on the front...

 

If it works that way then equipment used for a year vs brand new units would always measure differently and someone would have at some point measured that by now. As it is the only time something measures differently is if something is broken. What is more likely is that you get used to the sound, and/or you begin to notice other qualities about it.

 

 

 

 

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Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

...USB power. I guess I was just surprised that I couldn't detect much of a difference in sound quality straightaway, after reading all the glowing reviews. 

 

Well that's the thing - USB power is limited to 5v, and depending on the device providing it, limited current as well. While in the case of your specific headphones now it's more because they don't need a lot more power, the shortcomings of USB-powered DAC-HPamps will certainly be more apparent when using a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone or a much higher impedance headphone.

 

[Phybron]

******* it, I think I'm going to order a Modi 2 Uber / Magni 2 Uber combination. 
 
One, final, noob question: do I need to switch both on and off when I sleep the computer?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phybron /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

One, final, noob question: do I need to switch both on and off when I sleep the computer?

 

I think the Modi is triggered by USB power, but if your computer has that overnight charging pass-through, then as long as the computer is connected to say a surge protector or UPS that are running, then that light on the Modi2 will run also. I switch off the voltage regulator and/or surge protectors on my important electronics so I don't really deal with this issue.

 

The Magni has a manual switch so you can just flip that when you're done.

 

[Phybron]

 

 

I think the Modi is triggered by USB power, but if your computer has that overnight charging pass-through, then as long as the computer is connected to say a surge protector or UPS that are running, then that light on the Modi2 will run also. I switch off the voltage regulator and/or surge protectors on my important electronics so I don't really deal with this issue.

 

The Magni has a manual switch so you can just flip that when you're done.

Modi 2 is USB. Modi 2 Uber is powered. That's the one I'll go for, as it has the optical input.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Modi 2 is USB. Modi 2 Uber is powered. That's the one I'll go for, as it has the optical input.

 
The Uber should have a flip switch. That'll be better since you can manually shut it off. Note though that some DACs have the USB power for the input indicator, so if you use USB don't panic if the light stays on.

 

[Phybron]

Yep the Uber has a switch. With the current set-up I won't need to connect the USB at all, I don't think.