[Methos2]

I'm looking for the next step of a headphone and am willing to pay up to $1000 but the $200- $1000 has to show its performance advantage over my 58x equal to its asking price. The 58x at $170 and sometimes lower is easily the best performing headphone I have ever heard in the areas that mean a lot to me. Those areas are Sub-bass, mids, vocals, imaging, and intimacy over a large sound stage. Can you find other Sennheiser headphones that do some of these things...yes. Can you find any Sennheiser headphones that outperform the 58x in all areas...NO? And is the small difference between equaling in value to the asking price over the $170 for the 58x, NO. I am open to any other brands and again willing to pay up to $1000 for them but based on my experience with things like the Sundara...they never show performance equal to the cost difference they asking for. And in terms of the Sundara...it failed to beat the 58x in sub-base, vocals, intimacy, and mids. It won on a larger sound stage and higher resolutions on the treble but failed to outperform in the majority of the categories that mean a lot to me and it most definitely didn't prove that it was double the price in its performance. And that is the cornerstone of my dilemma. I don't believe there is a single headphone that delivers in its performance vs Price tag better than the 58x. I "experience" Music with the 58x...with others like the Sundara...I only listen to music analytically. Looking for something that proves its price and performance matches is the biggest challenge I see in this hobby. Any true Price to performance a suggestion that is truly better than the 58x? I'm all ears.

Note: This isn't a challenge on your choices or something that I want others to feel upset about subjectivity on their choices.
I just want an honest suggestion that is truly better based on price/performance matching, not something that is a little better here or there.

 

[ku1185]

Noob here, but just wondering if you're looking for tuning or technicalities. Reading your post makes it sound like you're more looking for better tuning.

I'm hunting for another pair and the frequency response of the Focal Elex had me thinking it might sound somewhat similar to the HD58x. Here's Massdrop's frequency response graph comparing the Elex and HD650: https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/massdrop-x-focal-elex-headphones/001_20171215220613.jpg

As for value, yeah, I feel like you really hit diminishing returns hard past the $200 point.

 

[Methos2]

Noob here, but just wondering if you're looking for tuning or technicalities. Reading your post makes it sound like you're more looking for better tuning.

I'm hunting for another pair and the frequency response of the Focal Elex had me thinking it might sound somewhat similar to the HD58x. Here's Massdrop's frequency response graph comparing the Elex and HD650: https://massdrop-s3.imgix.net/product-images/massdrop-x-focal-elex-headphones/001_20171215220613.jpg

As for value, yeah, I feel like you really hit diminishing returns hard past the $200 point.

honestly, I'm not truly looking because I'm not happy with the 58x. I actually don't think anything is better based on things I mentioned above. I guess What I'm asking is for something that is as equally better than the 58x (if it exists) as the price that they asking for the headphone in the areas I mentioned in sub-bass, vocals, mids, intimacy, and imaging. And so far I haven't seen a single device that has proven that they are $200, $300, $800 worth of difference over my 58x. And if I'm right...the 58x is the end game and there is no point looking anymore into this hobby.

 

[ku1185]

I think you're probably right that there isn't many better value propositions past the HD58x or others roughly in that price range. It probably just comes down to preferences. But I also guess it depends on how much you value those slight improvements you get from spending much much more. But you could say the same thing about things like cars, where a $100,000 car isn't going to be 5 times more car than a $20,000 one (are there $20,000 cars anymore?).

That said, a $1,500 stack and high end headphones does provide a markedly improved experience to a $200 stack and $200 headphones. Whether it's worth it is up to the listener.

 

[silent-circuit]

I'd take most of my current "stable" over the 58X, but I'm also not a huge fan of the 58X tuning, so... It's a preference thing. I suspect you've spent so much time with the 58X and gotten so used to their tuning and over all presentation that anything else is going to sound "wrong" to you. So yes, for you personally there's probably not much point to keep looking.

 

[AxelCloris]

To comment on looking for a ratio: unfortunately the law of diminishing returns hits hard as the price of a headphone climbs. Everyone will have their own thoughts on "cutoffs," but I feel that you can get a LOT of headphone under the $200 price point and that climbing into higher price brackets will have a lower cost/performance ratio. If that ratio is what you're chasing, it sounds like you'll be looking for a different sound in the same price range as the HD 58X. Finding a better C/P ratio is also relative, taking into account things like budget and personal preference. For example I'm not the biggest fan of the HD 58X and I would say that a different open headphone would offer a substantially higher cost/performance ratio than the 58X, like the $50 Koss Porta Pro. Same for the Sony MDR-7506, and that's around $100.

Now taking that into consideration:

Note: This isn't a challenge on your choices or something that I want others to feel upset about subjectivity on their choices.
I just want an honest suggestion that is truly better based on price/performance matching, not something that is a little better here or there.

...but based on my experience with things like the Sundara...they never show performance equal to the cost difference they asking for.

Since you enjoy the HD 58X and you're searching for a headphone that offers considerable improvement rather than small upgrades/differences here and there, you're unlikely to find what you're looking for in the higher price brackets. If you decide that you're looking to get a headphone that has a similar presentation and signature to the HD 58X then you're sure to find something that will suit your tastes in higher brackets; but since you're looking specifically for a headphone with a higher C/P ratio, the diminishing returns of higher priced headphones will make that quite difficult.

 

[Methos2]

To comment on looking for a ratio: unfortunately the law of diminishing returns hits hard as the price of a headphone climbs. Everyone will have their own thoughts on "cutoffs," but I feel that you can get a LOT of headphone under the $200 price point and that climbing into higher price brackets will have a lower cost/performance ratio. If that ratio is what you're chasing, it sounds like you'll be looking for a different sound in the same price range as the HD 58X. Finding a better C/P ratio is also relative, taking into account things like budget and personal preference. For example I'm not the biggest fan of the HD 58X and I would say that a different open headphone would offer a substantially higher cost/performance ratio than the 58X, like the $50 Koss Porta Pro. Same for the Sony MDR-7506, and that's around $100.

Now taking that into consideration:



Since you enjoy the HD 58X and you're searching for a headphone that offers considerable improvement rather than small upgrades/differences here and there, you're unlikely to find what you're looking for in the higher price brackets. If you decide that you're looking to get a headphone that has a similar presentation and signature to the HD 58X then you're sure to find something that will suit your tastes in higher brackets; but since you're looking specifically for a headphone with a higher C/P ratio, the diminishing returns of higher priced headphones will make that quite difficult.

the diminishing returns of higher priced headphones will make that quite difficult.

That's Ultimately what I'm saying and thinking. But thanks for confirming my thoughts. For me it's really simple...If you ask for $1000...there shouldn't be a headphone that costs $170 that beats you at anything and that difference in your sound quality so be far and away better to justify the cost difference especially in this field where all these headphones are all made out of the same plastic. But again ..thanks

I think you're probably right that there isn't many better value propositions past the HD58x or others roughly in that price range. It probably just comes down to preferences. But I also guess it depends on how much you value those slight improvements you get from spending much much more. But you could say the same thing about things like cars, where a $100,000 car isn't going to be 5 times more car than a $20,000 one (are there $20,000 cars anymore?).

That said, a $1,500 stack and high end headphones does provide a markedly improved experience to a $200 stack and $200 headphones. Whether it's worth it is up to the listener.

I respect your view...but 100,000 car not only goes faster but is made with higher material, hand made for some and made to last longer and stronger,... Headphones like the 800s is made with the same plastic as any other headphone and by the same machines. Or companies like Hifiman who has almost the exact same design for all of their headphones and yet have QC issues out the butt...so that's not really like a car.

But...yes I do agree with you ...there are a lot people that put a value on a lot of things that have no real difference...I'm just not one of them.

As far as your comment on the Amp and DAC ...again ...if you can give me an Amp and DAC that will show in performance doubling to match its cost vs what I spent on my 789 I will get it. But that's just not what I'm hearing from people. Everyone eventually says...there is only certain differences but nothing that actually justifies the price matching performance difference. If you are saying something different ...Please show me the item and charts or graphics that prove it and I will get the product.

 

[Methos2]

To comment on looking for a ratio: unfortunately the law of diminishing returns hits hard as the price of a headphone climbs. Everyone will have their own thoughts on "cutoffs," but I feel that you can get a LOT of headphone under the $200 price point and that climbing into higher price brackets will have a lower cost/performance ratio. If that ratio is what you're chasing, it sounds like you'll be looking for a different sound in the same price range as the HD 58X. Finding a better C/P ratio is also relative, taking into account things like budget and personal preference. For example I'm not the biggest fan of the HD 58X and I would say that a different open headphone would offer a substantially higher cost/performance ratio than the 58X, like the $50 Koss Porta Pro. Same for the Sony MDR-7506, and that's around $100.

Now taking that into consideration:



Since you enjoy the HD 58X and you're searching for a headphone that offers considerable improvement rather than small upgrades/differences here and there, you're unlikely to find what you're looking for in the higher price brackets. If you decide that you're looking to get a headphone that has a similar presentation and signature to the HD 58X then you're sure to find something that will suit your tastes in higher brackets; but since you're looking specifically for a headphone with a higher C/P ratio, the diminishing returns of higher priced headphones will make that quite difficult.

thank you for your response. I did look up one of your suggestions that you claim is better than the 58x... Rting says otherwise on their measurements( see attachments). The 58x destroyed this headphone ..it's overall score was 83 vs 71 for the koss porta....They destroyed them in imaging, mids, bass and even treble. So I'm sorry, yes subjectivity is important but I got to believe Rting graphs if they scored this vs comparison that bad...it wasn't even close. If it was close I would consider it a possible consideration but they aren't close to the same scores so there is a difference worth giving the clear nod to the 58x, "For me"

 

[Methos2]

I'd take most of my current "stable" over the 58X, but I'm also not a huge fan of the 58X tuning, so... It's a preference thing. I suspect you've spent so much time with the 58X and gotten so used to their tuning and over all presentation that anything else is going to sound "wrong" to you. So yes, for you personally there's probably not much point to keep looking.

Actually, I spent 1 day with the 58x before I got the Sundara and then turned around and only used the Sundara for 2 weeks in a row and came back to the 58x for 5 minutes and it wasn't close. I even bought in other people who have never listened to either to do a blind test and not a single person picked the Sundara over the 58x.

 

[ku1185]

I respect your view...but 100,000 car not only goes faster but is made with higher material, hand made for some and made to last longer and stronger,... Headphones like the 800s is made with the same plastic as any other headphone and by the same machines. Or companies like Hifiman who has almost the exact same design for all of their headphones and yet have QC issues out the butt...so that's not really like a car.

A $100k car doesn't go 5 times faster than a $20k car (usually), and similarly headphones will work a little bit better but not 1:1 in price. From what I can see, build quality is kind of all over the place in terms of headphones.

I also find it a little dubious to trying to quantify performance. 789 has good measurements but not the strongest in other things such as timbre, dynamics, staging, etc (btw, the only headphones I really liked listening to out of the 789 was the 58x). I don't have any proof nor am I inclined to provide any. You'll just have to get something that sounds different and try for yourself. IME, the Asgard 3 has the opposite characteristics of the 789, so that might be a place to start if you're looking to hear differences in gear (though the 58x was not the most revealing of the amps when I had those amps). It's not better, just different. If you're not interested in trying them out, then there's nothing I can do (or willing to do) to convince you otherwise. I'd actually envy you a bit for being happy with what you have and not going down the rabbit hole.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I find no headphones under $1000 that beat my 58x price to performance ratio.

Congratulations! Now you can just sit back and listen, or spend that $1000 on something else like buying CDs and HD FLACs to support your favorite musicians.

I bought my HD600 in 2010 and my Meier Cantate.2 in 2012. Since then my audio expenditures have just been:

1. An Aurisonics ASG-1.3 because I hated having to use beater IEMs on long haul flights. This is like having an HD650 on the go, save for some niggles with my S3's volume control (sensitivity on the Aurisonics was too high even for that phone).

2. A Pangea HP101 when my Cantate.2 blew its power supply and I had difficulty finding a replacement so I got an amp as a back up.

3. A Westone2 because the last stocks here went on sale (and supposedly I still get manufacturer warranty that the manufacturer denies was sold by an authorized dealer that I've known to be the only one ever selling it here neither company got back to me to clear up who was the official distributor when I bought it so I don't know which government I'm supposed to file a complaint with) and have now super glued back together.

4. A succession of beater IEMs pre-W2 purchase and one post-W2 shell separation.

5. Earpads, eartips, etc.

6. A DAP, because a) my phone has OLED burn and b) any replacement for it likely won't have a 3.5mm jack and c) USB out on Android has also started going wonky again.

Point is...basically anything I've purchased has to do with something breaking and maybe also obsolescence. Otherwise my reference system at home for the foreseeable future is still the HD600 and the Cantate.2. It's getting screwy right now but I'm more into fixing it than replacing it.

I'm looking for the next step of a headphone and am willing to pay up to $1000 but the $200- $1000 has to show its performance advantage over my 58x equal to its asking price. The 58x at $170 and sometimes lower is easily the best performing headphone I have ever heard in the areas that mean a lot to me. Those areas are Sub-bass, mids, vocals, imaging, and intimacy over a large sound stage. Can you find other Sennheiser headphones that do some of these things...yes. Can you find any Sennheiser headphones that outperform the 58x in all areas...NO? And is the small difference between equaling in value to the asking price over the $170 for the 58x, NO. I am open to any other brands and again willing to pay up to $1000 for them but based on my experience with things like the Sundara...they never show performance equal to the cost difference they asking for. And in terms of the Sundara...it failed to beat the 58x in sub-base, vocals, intimacy, and mids. It won on a larger sound stage and higher resolutions on the treble but failed to outperform in the majority of the categories that mean a lot to me and it most definitely didn't prove that it was double the price in its performance. And that is the cornerstone of my dilemma. I don't believe there is a single headphone that delivers in its performance vs Price tag better than the 58x. I "experience" Music with the 58x...with others like the Sundara...I only listen to music analytically. Looking for something that proves its price and performance matches is the biggest challenge I see in this hobby. Any true Price to performance a suggestion that is truly better than the 58x? I'm all ears.

Note: This isn't a challenge on your choices or something that I want others to feel upset about subjectivity on their choices.
I just want an honest suggestion that is truly better based on price/performance matching, not something that is a little better here or there.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/diminishing-returns

 

[blaked]

If I had that level of satisfaction with a pair of headphones, I'd be happy to be done! Honestly, given that the HD 58X is a Drop exclusive (unlike the 6XX, which is also available as the 650 for more money), I'd probably spend the money on another HD 58X, or even two of them! Then you have backups of your endgame headphone and/or headphones to keep in alternate locations, like the office.

 

[Lalerfy]

honestly, I'm not truly looking because I'm not happy with the 58x. I actually don't think anything is better based on things I mentioned above. I guess What I'm asking is for something that is as equally better than the 58x (if it exists) as the price that they asking for the headphone in the areas I mentioned in sub-bass, vocals, mids, intimacy, and imaging. And so far I haven't seen a single device that has proven that they are $200, $300, $800 worth of difference over my 58x. And if I'm right...the 58x is the end game and there is no point looking anymore into this hobby.

The hd6xx is better than the 58x,
it has more detailed highs. It's where the real 'Law Of Diminishing Returns' kicks in, especially when it's a Black Friday Sale for $190.

 

[earmonger]

I was vacillating over new 'phones and was considering the Drop Sennheisers. But I found assorted sources saying the Audio-Technica ATH-R70X is like a less veiled Sennheiser, and I hadn't been that impressed with some borrowed HD650. The ATH-R70X has been out since 2015 so there are a lot of reviews around, and even current reviewers mostly like them.

Crinacle is hardly infallible but he ranks them one notch below the Senn HD600, right next to them at A-.

And I found an open-box deal here, $260 rather than the $350 list.
https://www.proaudiostar.com/audio-technica-ath-r70x.html

They came in perfect condition. There's a 30-day return policy and they wrote me there would be no restocking fee if they came back in the same condition. I'd get that from them in writing because it's a little garbled on the website regarding "used" 'phones.

I am really pleased with them. They sound wide-open, very clear imaging. They are supposedly "reference" tuned for studio use plus a little bass boost for enjoyment, claiming 5-40,000 Hz frequency response, and my sub-bass tester tracks (the infamous "Why so Serious") show that the lower frequencies are indeed there. They are incredibly light and comfortable.

Extremely minor quirks: They've got a super long nine-foot cable but it's replaceable if that bothers you. The left and right markings are for some reason inside the headband; I stuck a little sticker on the right side, no big deal.

From someplace with a free return policy, like Pro Audio Star or possibly Amazon, they might be worth a try for you as a potential Sennheiser-plus.

 

[silent-circuit]

I was vacillating over new 'phones and was considering the Drop Sennheisers. But I found assorted sources saying the Audio-Technica ATH-R70X is like a less veiled Sennheiser, and I hadn't been that impressed with some borrowed HD650. The ATH-R70x been out since 2015 so there are a lot of reviews around, and even current reviewers mostly like them.

Crinacle is hardly infallible but he ranks them one notch below the Senn HD600, right next to them at A-.

And I found an open-box deal here, $260 rather than the $350 list.
https://www.proaudiostar.com/audio-technica-ath-r70x.html

They came in perfect condition. There's a 30-day return policy and they wrote me there would be no restocking fee if they came back in the same condition. I'd get that from them in writing because it's a little garbled on the website regarding "used" phones.

I am really pleased with them. They sound wide-open, very clear imaging. They are supposedly "reference" tuned for studio use plus a little bass boost for enjoyment, claiming 5-40,000 Hz frequency response, and my sub-bass tester tracks (the infamous "Why so Serious") show that the lower frequencies are indeed there. They are incredibly light and comfortable.

Extremely minor quirks: They've got a super long nine-foot cable but it's replaceable if that bothers you. The left and right markings are for some reason inside the headband; I stuck a little sticker on the right side, no big deal.

From someplace with a free return policy, like Pro Audio Star or possibly Amazon, they might be worth a try for you as a potential Sennheiser-plus.

I've found more than once if Crinacle hates something there's a good chance I'll love it. He and I clearly have very different ears and preferences. This is a rare exception (though having heard both I'd definitely rank the R70X well above the HD-600... So maybe not).