[elvergun]

Hi.


I didn’t know just how bad my Audigy2 card was until I started reading posts on this forum. I find that recently I don’t use my computer to play games - I use my Xbox for gaming - so I decided that it would be a good idea to replace the Audigy with a Chaintech AV-710.

In anticipation to the change, I started to play around with foobar2000. Unfortunately, I just don’t like the program’s interface. I have been using UltraPlayer for the last two years. I like a couple of skins that make the player really small…it can be minimized to the system tray…you can make the player stay on top of other window. I think that I might need to find another player (perhaps Winamp?) if I get the AV-710 (there is no option in UltraPlayer to send sound to the sound card…I believe that it calls Windows Kmixer directly, but I’m not sure).

Will the sound improve dramatically or will the change be something that only the most trained audiophile ears can detect. Is this whole exercise even worth it? What other players can I use besides foobar (one that will bypass Kmixer)?

 

[Mr.Radar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvergun Will the sound improve dramatically or will the change be something that only the most trained audiophile ears can detect.

The difference between FB2k and other players, if any, should be pretty small and not very noticeable unless you have an ultra-detailed can like a Stax Omega II.

Quote:

Is this whole exercise even worth it? What other players can I use besides foobar (one that will bypass Kmixer)?

The only other one I can think of is Winamp with the ASIO output (and using the ASIO4All universal ASIO driver on top of the standard Via one). But before you completely give up on FB2k there are a few things you can try:

Quote:

I like a couple of skins that make the player really small…

While FB2k doesn't really have skins, you can still make it small (see attached screenshot).

Quote:

it can be minimized to the system tray…

FB2k can do this too. To enable it goto Preferences -> Display -> Default User Interface -> System Tray.

Quote:

you can make the player stay on top of other window

FB2k can also do this. Select Always on Top from the File menu.

 

[Escape Your Mind]

Ya i also wondered about this as everyone was always talking about fb2k, and while ive used winamp for just about ever, I did not really like fb2k. Im sure winamp should be able to do the same that fb2k does? or am i mistaken here?

And I dont mean to take this thread off topic but, with the AV710 if say me for example is not really that much of an audiophille, and going from my onboard sound to the av710, would there really be a noticible differences even for someone such as myself?

 

[Mr.Radar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escape Your Mind Ya i also wondered about this as everyone was always talking about fb2k, and while ive used winamp for just about ever, I did not really like fb2k. Im sure winamp should be able to do the same that fb2k does? or am i mistaken here?

Winamp does a few things differently than Foobar2000 which causes the audio quality to decrease. First of all, it uses a 16-bit fixed-point processing pipeline which has very low accuracy compared to Foobar's 64-bit floating-point pipeline. Also, with Foobar you can use dither or 24-bit output with any format FB2k supports, while with Winamp you're at the mercy of the input plugin writer for dither and to the best of my knowledge true 24-bit output is impossible with Winamp. Also, with Winamp you can't resample audio in the middle of the processing chain so you either need to depend on the input plugin to do it before it enters the chain or the output plugin to do it after it leaves the chain (which will result in slightly lower quality because it only has access to 16-bit data). All of these are very minor reductions in quality but with really high end setups they can be noticeable after extensive A/B testing.

Quote:

And I dont mean to take this thread off topic but, with the AV710 if say me for example is not really that much of an audiophille, and going from my onboard sound to the av710, would there really be a noticible differences even for someone such as myself?

I don't consider myself an audiophile but upgrading from the onboard audio on my NF7-S to the AV-710 resulted in very improved sound. On the NF7-S's audio there were virtually no mid and upper highs while the AV-710 has them and the midrange is smoother and the bass is tighter. All those differences were noted with only a Koss PortaPro, I'm sure that on a better can (like the HD595 you have in your proposed setup in your sig) they'd be very easily noticeable.

 

[elvergun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar The only other one I can think of is Winamp with the ASIO output (and using the ASIO4All universal ASIO driver on top of the standard Via one).

Is the ASIO output (I’m not too knowledgeable on this subject…actually, I know nothing

) the only way to send output directly to the soundcard (therefore bypassing the Windows Kmixer)? In other words, is there an alternative setting (not ASIO...using Winamp) that might not sound as good, but that is better than the resample Kmixer/Audigy perform?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar But before you completely give up on FB2k there are a few things you can try

I guess I can give FB2k another try. I just want to make sure that there is an alternative in case I end up not liking the product.

Will the Winamp/AV-710 combo be a great improvement over UltraPlayer/Audigy2 or will I be forced to use FB2k in order to get improved sound quality?

There must be other players that can send sound directly to a sound card. I wish that UltraPlayer had an option to do this.

BTW, thanks for the info.

 

[AnimeEd]

there is also the Kernel Streamig plug in for winamp to avoid kmixer

 

[Mr.Radar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvergun Is the ASIO output (I’m not too knowledgeable on this subject…actually, I know nothing ) the only way to send output directly to the soundcard (therefore bypassing the Windows Kmixer)? In other words, is there an alternative setting (not ASIO...using Winamp) that might not sound as good, but that is better than the resample Kmixer/Audigy perform?

AFAIK, with Winamp ASIO is the only way to bypass kmixier with the AV-710.

Quote:

Will the Winamp/AV-710 combo be a great improvement over UltraPlayer/Audigy2 or will I be forced to use FB2k in order to get improved sound quality?

Winamp/AV-710 will be a big improvement over UltraPlayer/A2, but mostly because of the hardware. If you really like UP and don't want to switch then give UP/AV-710 a try and see if you like it.

 

[elvergun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar If you really like UP and don't want to switch then give UP/AV-710 a try and see if you like it.

True. I can always try FB2K or Winamp if UP does not work out.


One more thing…I was browsing the UltraPlayer site when I came upon this page: http://www.ultraplayer.com/company/dectests.asp.

They mention that their Nutrino decoder is very good. Does this decoder bypass the Windows Kmixer? If not, then the UP/ AV-710 combo would probably be no better than using an Audigy2 since the Windows Kmixer will probably come into play. Is this correct?

 

[Mr.Radar]

Kmixer only makes a very small degredation of sound compared to the horrible resampling on the Audigy (that's unrelated to kmixer). And the Chaintech uses higher quality hardware than the Audigy anyways so you should notice an improvment even if it does go through kmixer.

As for the Neutrino decoder, all the decoder does is turn compressed audio data into uncompressed audio data. It has nothing to do with how the data actaully gets to the soundcard. Also, most people consider the MAD decoder (as used in LAME and Foobar) to be very good as well (in fact it was rated exactly the same as the Neutrino deocder in one of those linked ratings pages (the links are broken but www.archive.org has a copy of them)).

 

[quke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar While FB2k doesn't really have skins, you can still make it small (see attached screenshot).

There are actually some plugins that enable using Winamp-like skins (and I think even Winamp 2 skins as is). One of these is foo_looks. Few use these though because the normal UI enhanced with columns_ui is simply better to use. Add some custom config string to the columns_ui (or for that matter make your own) and some custom buttons and you got yourself a nice looking player that is very efficient to use.

The biggest problem with the FB2k is that you have to get some of the user made plugins yourself. The Special installer on foobar's site has most of them but I think you still have to find some yourself. I also like very much the Winamp 5 media library and feel that the foobar database isn't really as good but it's still something you can live with. After the database search plugin anyway.

Here's how my foobar2k looks like. I'm using columns_ui and Azrael config. The buttons I quickly draw myself to match the playlist.

 

[elvergun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Radar Kmixer only makes a very small degredation of sound compared to the horrible resampling on the Audigy (that's unrelated to kmixer). And the Chaintech uses higher quality hardware than the Audigy anyways so you should notice an improvment even if it does go through kmixer. As for the Neutrino decoder, all the decoder does is turn compressed audio data into uncompressed audio data. It has nothing to do with how the data actaully gets to the soundcard. Also, most people consider the MAD decoder (as used in LAME and Foobar) to be very good as well (in fact it was rated exactly the same as the Neutrino deocder in one of those linked ratings pages (the links are broken but www.archive.org has a copy of them)).

Thanks Mr. Radar. So it seems that if I switch sound cards I will notice an improvement in SQ even if I keep using UP. Not a bad deal for $25.

I will order the card today. Perhaps I can install and use the three player (UP, Winamp and FB2K) for different requirements (for when I want a small player…for when I want optimal sound quality…and something in between).

BTW…what the heck is the icon used in foobar

? Is it a mad cat or a pissed off alien? Perhaps it is the person child of a cat and an alien?

 

[elvergun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by quke Here's how my foobar2k looks like. I'm using columns_ui and Azrael config. The buttons I quickly draw myself to match the playlist.

Very nice. I'll definitely experiment with the interface.

So what do you think the icon is??? Cat or Alien

?

 

[quke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elvergun So what do you think the icon is??? Cat or Alien ?

Most people use Winamp or iTunes so foobar might look a little alien to them. I'll opt the latter.

 

[commando]

I downloaded columns_ui, but how do I make my foobar look like quke's?

 

[quke]

Download the config from here. First enable the columns_ui, then in preferences go to Columns_ui -> Other -> Import. Find the Azrael.fcs where you downloaded it. Save changes and restart your foobar if it didn't load the new look. There's a config part in Preferences -> Columns_ui -> Globals -> Variables text box. It looks like lots of code, but is pretty simple. From there you can set some options and also change the color scheme. I think here are pictures of the choices.

And yes it's useless if you don't have full albums for some reason. Also the ID3 or other tags should be set properly.