Hydrogen!
Mar 21, 2007 at 5:06 AM Post #31 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdelayer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Actually, at a seminar at the Hydrogen Convention, one of the engineers from General Atomics stated that the S-I cycle is closer than it seems. And energy conservation won't happen as long as we still have people who buy Hummers and other gas-guzzlers.


Hey, baby steps in several directions isn't bad is it?
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We can still be studying hydrogen production as some of the environmentally conscious people switch over to smaller cars, hybrids, or biodesiel now. And gas prices do a lot to our attention spans. I've notice less Hummers around me now....think it might have been those price hikes in gas prices over the summer.
 
Mar 21, 2007 at 5:19 AM Post #32 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trippytiger /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The big problems that I see with using hydrogen in cars are distribution and storage. There is no distribution infrastructure for fuels that exist in a vapour state!


Actually, the hydrogen would be transported in liquid form, as it would allow more to be transported at once. If a car needs gaseous hydrogen, it could be converted at the fueling station. Some cars (like the BMW Hydrogen 7) run on liquified hydrogen which would be fine straight from the pump.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trippytiger /img/forum/go_quote.gif
It would require absolutely massive investment to build hydrogen refueling stations all over the world, whereas there is already an abundance of such stations for fuels that exist in a liquid state within a reasonable range of temperatures and pressures. This alone is enough for me to write off hydrogen-powered cars as a possibility.


I talked with an engineer from BMW and we discussed the possibility of, one day, far in the future, of course, gasoline becoming obsolete and converting its infrastructure to a hydrogen-transporting one. And we already have plenty of gas stations.
 
Mar 21, 2007 at 5:41 AM Post #33 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdelayer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Actually, the hydrogen would be transported in liquid form, as it would allow more to be transported at once. If a car needs gaseous hydrogen, it could be converted at the fueling station. Some cars (like the BMW Hydrogen 7) run on liquified hydrogen which would be fine straight from the pump.

I talked with an engineer from BMW and we discussed the possibility of, one day, far in the future, of course, gasoline becoming obsolete and converting its infrastructure to a hydrogen-transporting one. And we already have plenty of gas stations.



I should have specified that I was talking about existing distribution systems. I meant to do that. I usually do when I make that argument.

Anyways, of course it would be transported in liquid form. Most gases are; you're absolutely right. But here's the thing - hydrogen liquifies at about 20.27 K. Removing that much energy from anything is a process that requires huge amounts of energy itself, which is fine on the scale that it's usually done at because efficiency isn't really a primary goal in most situations. But now expand that to the volume of hydrogen required to run millions of vehicles, and you're look at a serious amount of energy lost to liquifying the fuel alone. That's bound to put a serious dent in the overall efficiency of the fuel, which makes it a little less green. That's why I was talking about gaseous hydrogen, because it would be much easier to deal with in many respects, although more difficult in others.

And as far as converting gas stations go, well, I'm not sure "converting" is the word to use. I think "replacing" is much more accurate. The buildings could stay, I suppose, as well as the asphalt and the big shelter things, but there's simply no way you're going to be able to use existing tanks and pumps for hydrogen. Liquid hydrogen is far too cold, requires too much pressure, and will probably leak right through anything not designed specifically for hydrogen storage. So anything related to the "gas" component of a gas station will have to go - hence the massive investment I'm concerned about. I just can't see it happening.

Ethanol, on the other hand...
 
Mar 21, 2007 at 1:12 PM Post #34 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by Elec /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hydrogen really ISN'T a source of energy, unless someone says "Here, have some hydrogen!" or you find a hydrogen "mine" or something. It has to be produced from something else in a process that consumes energy. As a result, hydrogen is more of a storage mechanism, like a battery. When you burn the hydrogen or react it in a fuel cell, you get back (some) of the energy you used to separate the hydrogen in the first place. One of the holy grails of hydrogen is a production mechanism which uses little or no energy. Say, a nanoscale filter or something that you could pour water through and get hydrogen and oxygen gas out the other side.

You can use nuclear, wind, hydroelectric, solar to produce hydrogen, but you're really just taking that energy and storing it up in the hydrogen for transport or later use.



The only way to cheaply produce hydrogen is nuclear power i.e the energy used to produce hydrogen is less than the energy stored in hydrogen.

Nuclear power has its own set of problems.
 
Mar 21, 2007 at 1:27 PM Post #35 of 56
TrippyTiger: I'm with you...

Have any of you HANDLED liquid Hydrogen? It is witchy stuff, positively dangerous, especially in large amounts.

Any of you ever have an airconditioner that leaks? How hard it was/is to find and fix any leak? Hydrogen is THAT, cubed!!

Imagine, if you will, an accident where the storage tank is pierced - will make the showy "explosions" that Hollywood uses Propane for look positively anemic - the flame front moves much faster in Hydrogen=more energetic, much more.

Ethanol/Methanol are the way to go, as they are easily adapted to our present tech. Just a slightly larger orifice in our injectors, slightly bigger tanks to have equivalent ranges, and higher compression in the motors will make more horsepower (higher thermodynamic efficiency). Ethanol/Methanol is relatively benign in accidents (except that the flame of the fuels alone is invisible in Daylight), and is easily handled at ambient temps/pressures.

If we can get cellulosic conversion plants up and running, all the vegetable matter that is presently put in the dump will generate all the fuel we can use - grass clippings, wheat stalks, sugar cane canes after sugar extraction (bagasse), wood chips, old lumber, Corn cobs, husks, stalks, and so on.

Biodiesel and Ethanol/Methanol will rule the future.
 
Mar 21, 2007 at 6:20 PM Post #36 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trippytiger /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I remain utterly perplexed as to how anyone can truly believe that hydrogen is a viable fuel source for cars. And I'm not trying to be snarky or mean - I am genuinely confused. All I can see in hydrogen is a myriad of problems, and yet there are clearly many engineers and scientists far more educated than I who seem to be lining up behind it. But why?

I guess it's already been established in this thread that hydrogen isn't an energy source, but an energy currency, which is good. That's an important distinction; if it wasn't, there would be no issue. No point in me talking about that.

The big problems that I see with using hydrogen in cars are distribution and storage. There is no distribution infrastructure for fuels that exist in a vapour state! It would require absolutely massive investment to build hydrogen refueling stations all over the world, whereas there is already an abundance of such stations for fuels that exist in a liquid state within a reasonable range of temperatures and pressures. This alone is enough for me to write off hydrogen-powered cars as a possibility.

Personally, I see more of a future for ethanol and batteries in automotive applications. Ethanol, while expensive and inefficient compared to fossil fuels right now, is bound to improve in both those respects as cellulose ethanol technology ramps up. More importantly, ethanol can be basically used as a drop-in replacement for gasoline in gas stations because it is, handily, a liquid at most temperatures it's bound to encounter. Plus, it's more-or-less carbon neutral, which is a big bonus. And batteries, of course, have a distribution infrastructure in the form of the electrical grid. All that we're waiting on is for battery technologies to reach a more useful energy density.

Ultimately, I think I'll be driving an ethanol or biodiesel plug-in hybrid (a la the Chevy Volt), or even a battery-electric car before a hydrogen powered car. But, my honest question to those who believe otherwise is, why do you see hydrogen prevailing over the alternate fuels I mentioned? What makes hydrogen worth the investment required to make it viable?




this is my line of thought as well; glad i'm not the only one
 
Mar 22, 2007 at 4:09 AM Post #38 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by KYTGuy /img/forum/go_quote.gif
TrippyTiger: I'm with you...

Have any of you HANDLED liquid Hydrogen? It is witchy stuff, positively dangerous, especially in large amounts.

Any of you ever have an airconditioner that leaks? How hard it was/is to find and fix any leak? Hydrogen is THAT, cubed!!

Imagine, if you will, an accident where the storage tank is pierced - will make the showy "explosions" that Hollywood uses Propane for look positively anemic - the flame front moves much faster in Hydrogen=more energetic, much more.

Ethanol/Methanol are the way to go, as they are easily adapted to our present tech. Just a slightly larger orifice in our injectors, slightly bigger tanks to have equivalent ranges, and higher compression in the motors will make more horsepower (higher thermodynamic efficiency). Ethanol/Methanol is relatively benign in accidents (except that the flame of the fuels alone is invisible in Daylight), and is easily handled at ambient temps/pressures.

If we can get cellulosic conversion plants up and running, all the vegetable matter that is presently put in the dump will generate all the fuel we can use - grass clippings, wheat stalks, sugar cane canes after sugar extraction (bagasse), wood chips, old lumber, Corn cobs, husks, stalks, and so on.

Biodiesel and Ethanol/Methanol will rule the future.



Today at the expo I got a chance to fuel the liquid-hydrogen powered BMW; that system alone goes through numerous checks to make sure everything is A-OK before it will allow pumping to begin. And a couple of the car manufactures to whom I spoke said that if a leak is detected in the car, it'll automatically shut off.

I also got a chance to check out some of the tanks used for storing hydrogen. They are thick. (Two inch walls, at least, depending on the capacity of the tank.) They are heavy (at least, as far as a person trying to lift them goes). A leak there isn't really something that needs to be worried about. The tanks are positioned in such a way as to avoid damage to them should there be an accident. As far as hoses and things go, those are all monitored by the onboard computer. Safety's not really an issue.

And as far as the infrastructure situation goes, Chevron and Shell (and another car manufacturer which I can't remember right off hand) have bothed said that they are nearly ready to start building hydrogen fueling stations and should begin within the next couple of years.

(P.S., ethanol and methanol are only about as efficient as current gasoline technology, as far as the actual combustion in vehicles goes. [And there are fuel cells that can run on [m]ethanol; I'm not sure if any are being utilized in vehicles as of yet.)
 
Mar 24, 2007 at 10:36 PM Post #39 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdelayer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
(P.S., ethanol and methanol are only about as efficient as current gasoline technology, as far as the actual combustion in vehicles goes. [And there are fuel cells that can run on [m]ethanol; I'm not sure if any are being utilized in vehicles as of yet.)


Well, they may not be much more efficient in terms of thermal efficiency (although, having said that, I would very much like to see what could be done with an engine given the higher compression ratios that ethanol allows for over gasoline), but I think that's beside the point here. The key is the overall efficiency of the fuel once everything is factored in - extraction, processing, distribution, utilization, etc. Granted, at this point ethanol still fares rather poorly in that respect. However, it looks set to improve, and it is an essentially carbon neutral fuel, which is really the most important thing from an environmental point of view. It's also a lot easier to handle than hydrogen, and even safer than gasoline and diesel in most respects.

As far as methanol reformer fuel cells go, my understanding is that they're not really more efficient than ICE's, so I don't really see a purpose to them. You might as well just burn the methanol straight rather than converting it into hydrogen on the fly.
 
Mar 24, 2007 at 11:10 PM Post #40 of 56
If you want an eco-car today your best bet is a battery-electric car and a small turbine in your backyard to charge it. Or even better, buy a bicycle.

Hydrogen cars are a pipe dream. If for no other reason that the problem of getting Hydrogen fuel from the refineries to the gas-stations, we will not see widespread use within 30 years.

Any "alternate fuel" will have to fit into the current gasoline-delivery method (ie. you can put 50,000 gallons in a big bucket on wheels) such as E85 or used frier oil.

-OR-

Use existing electricity. Either stored in batteries, or somebody invents the household hydrogen refinery (which would be cool).

The afor mention "frier oil" is too limited a commodity for widespread use. A small town can easily generate enough used grease to keep some hippy with a VW Rabbit in good stock, but even a good sized city (say 50,000) would not produce enough for even 100 of its cars running every day.
 
Mar 24, 2007 at 11:16 PM Post #41 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdelayer /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Today at the expo I got a chance to fuel the liquid-hydrogen powered BMW; that system alone goes through numerous checks to make sure everything is A-OK before it will allow pumping to begin. And a couple of the car manufactures to whom I spoke said that if a leak is detected in the car, it'll automatically shut off.


Yes, thats fine for BMW, but what about the KIA hydrogen system 5 years from now???

"Eh, just jam it in their. The car assumes if the hydrogen-fuel gate has been breached then it must be from a regulation designed fuel pump because nobody would ever be dumb enough to try and syphon hydrogen. Its all good."
 
Mar 24, 2007 at 11:42 PM Post #42 of 56
I'm going to put up some numbers to illustrate how ridiculously infeasible a hydrogen based transportation system is.

From here daily US gasoline consumption is 383.3 million gallons a day. There's about 125400 BTUs of energy in each gallon so over a year that works out to 17.5 Quads (quadrillion BTUs) or so. Car engines are about 25% efficient so that's about 4.4 Quads worth of work.

Current fuel cells are about 60-70% efficient, call it 65%. For 4.4 Quads of work that's 6.7 Quads of Hydrogen. Liquifying H2 which is the only practical way to transport it takes about 40% of the energy content of the H2, so now we're up to 9.5 Quads. H2 evaporates at 4% a day so add that in and let's round it off to 10 Quads. Current electrolysis methods are about 30% efficient so that's about 33 Quads. Congratulations, you've nearly doubled the US energy consumption for transportation, and upped the overall consumption by close to 20%.

Keep in mind that the US uses about 100 Quads worth of energy every year, with about 7.2 Quads from nuclear. IIRC, there's about 100 nuke stations in the US, going all nuclear to make the hydrogen works out to something like 450 new nuclear generating stations. A couple billion for each station and that's almost a trillion bucks right there, then add in the hydrogen production plants, the compression and/or liquifaction plants, the fill-up stations, tanker trucks & other ways to transport the fuel, and you're looking at several trillion more. I'd ballpark a figure of $5 trillion or so if we're lucky, it's probably closer to $10 trillion which is the estimate given by auto & energy companies.

Going with full-electric charge-up cars isn't nearly as bad. Let's assume the electric motor along with the power grid is about 90% efficient which is actually a bit better than average. The 4.4 Quads calculated earlier becomes 4.9, which works out to 68 new nuke plants, call it 70. Assuming of course that battery problems can be solved, and then there's the problem of upgrading the entire national power grid from the generating station all the way to every home and business. You'll need at least a 240V 50A outlet to charge a car in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming the battery capacity problem is solved it'll be a heck of a lot cheaper than going to hydrogen. Battery issues are a lot less problematic than producing, transporting, handling, and storing a highly flammable cryogenic gas.


Moving on to renewable energy such as wind and solar. The US has an installed generating capacity of roughly a terawatt, or a million megawatts. Keep this number in mind.

The total solar energy falling on a square metre of ground is about 1kW, however solar panels are only about 20% efficient at best (unless you're running CIA or NASA satellites with unlimited budgets) so that works out to 200W/m2 in the sunny Nevada desert. 200MW/km2, about 5km2/GW, or 5000 square kilometres to power the US grid in a best case scenario. After accounting for clouds, bird poop, dust, and so forth, you'll need at least twice that area. That's an area of land larger than Yellowstone National Park. Building & maintaining all those panels is less realistic than nuclear fusion.

With wind, let's see, average wind turbines these days are about 3MW each. That's oh, 335,000 or so wind turbines, assuming the wind blows perfectly round the clock. In real life there's a 3:1 reduction factor (ie. a 100MW site will produce an average of 33MW or so), so that's about a million wind turbines. Expect to see a massive shortage of carbon fibre, aluminum, and copper if a mass wind turbine program is instituted.

The problem with renewables is very simple, power density; it takes ridiculously huge amounts of land & space to generate significant amounts of power. A nuclear plant can be built on a hundred acres of land and generate several gigawatts of electricity. Build a nuke plant and I can power a metropolis, with wind & solar I'll have to litter countless miles of countryside to do the same. Don't let the greenies tell you otherwise, they never do the numbers breakdown.
 
Mar 24, 2007 at 11:46 PM Post #43 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by uzziah /img/forum/go_quote.gif
oh, and of course in the real world it's all about money. but it's hardly that far off to think that solar could dominate. folks who put in panels on their roof are often have payed for their cost, and are selling power back to the power company within several years. this isn't science-fiction folks, that's what big oil wants us to think, let's not be tricked


Wind will dominate, not solar. You can buy a turbine today for $5k that will produce enough to run the average house. The same house would need $50k in solar panels, and only be viable in select areas (the southwest US). Want more power? build a taller turbine....
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There is a series of 75+ of these babies 10 minutes from my house. This is a simple technology (as far as power generation: probably the simplest) that any country/government can get in on the act and uses existing power infastructure.

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And while few can afford a battery TESLA roadster ($100k), its 4 second 0-60mph acceleration, 130+mph top speed and 250 mile range testify that yes Marsha, you can drive home an electric car tomorrow and start "gassing it up" as soon as you plug it into the walloutlet thats already there.

Sadly 'return on investment' only allows for awesome performance in expensive cars, until more companies enter the market and drive prices down. So in the meantime those of us with more modest budgets are stuck buying really small electric cars
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(car pictured is a Zap! Xebra. They do come in normal colors)Which are expected to cost under $12k delivered by Summer '07.

But those are new cars. There are several companies that will retrofit any vehicle with an electric motor, this takes about 100hours of skilled labor and roughly $8k (plus cost of used car).

But until there is a middle-ground electric car (thats costs $30k but 'only' goes 90mph), most of us will be driving gas cars.
 
Mar 25, 2007 at 1:50 AM Post #45 of 56
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rock&Roll Ninja /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Wind will dominate, not solar. You can buy a turbine today for $5k that will produce enough to run the average house. The same house would need $50k in solar panels, and only be viable in select areas (the southwest US).


Sure, every place in the world is magically windy every day. Newsflash, wind is about as reliable as solar, there are many places and times when the wind simply refuses to blow. Wind is just like solar, it's only viable in certain areas of the world, namely the coastal mountains which have consistent winds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken36 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I support hydrogen. Why not?


I suggest reading my previous post, again. That's why not.
 

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