[Eyaul]

Hello everybody, thanks for reading my post in the first place. Newbie overhere, this is my first post.
First I want to explain my problem, the first dac I got to try was the gamedac that came with the Arctis Pro, a pair of gaming headphones. The difference in sound quality with the onboard dac was day and night. I was happy with that, but then I wanted to make an upgrade, and bought the Dragonfly Cobalt with the Fidelios X2 HR. But for my deception Im not able to tell a difference between the two dacs. After I bought the HD800S with the 789 AMP conected to the dragonfly cobalt with a 3.5mm to RCA cable from Audioquest. Another deception, this time the sound quality between the fidelios and 800s wasnt that big or noticeable as the pricetag of the heaphones. Following recomendations I bought the Soekris 2541 dac and Im planning to buy the Violectric v280. But now my gripe is that using the 2541 internal amp with my 800s sounds the same as with the 789. Or at least i cant tell. Can you help me telling me what im doing wrong or theres a way to train the ear to learn to diferentiate those details. Thanks for reading.

 

[surfgeorge]

One thing to consider is that your chain of digital source - DAC - Amp will determine the signal quality that arrives at the headphones. I have a $2200 Chord Hugo 2 and a $400 Chord Mojo, and if I feed the Hugo 2 with the noisy USB signal from my work laptop it sounds clearly worse than the cheaper Mojo fed with a clean digital signal. The best SQ I got with a Toslik optical connection from a Macbook Pro, but also the USB from MBP (running off battery) sounded very good. And make sure you have disabled all digital processing upstream of the DAC, that can also mess up the signal.

Regarding hearing the differences - there are a few things that make differences easier to hear:
* well recorded / mastered tracks
* the right music style - I find classical concerts, Jazz and Acoustic music to be most critical
* Stop trying to listen for differences, immerse yourself in the music and pay attention to what you feel

That last one needs more explanation.
When I switch from Hugo 2 to Mojo, the wide open stage I hear with the Hugo 2 gets compressed, and I feel like the music is crammed into my forehead. When I switch from Mojo to Hugo, it opens up, instruments are placed further out. Notes are faster, more defined, more engaging. The music pulls me in, makes me tap my feet more. Mojo sounds more relaxing, with softer and more relaxed bass and treble. Hugo 2 demands more attention, makes listening more intense, presenting more detail from sub bass to high treble.

With the HD800S you have a world class headphone that will reveal changes upstream better than almost any other headphone. What I find surprising is that you didn't hear much difference between the Fidelios and the Hd800s, because that should be very significant. I have a colleague who plays and records music at home but he can't hear much if any difference between my gear, where it is easily audible for me.

 

[Eyaul]

One thing to consider is that your chain of digital source - DAC - Amp will determine the signal quality that arrives at the headphones.

Hello, thanks for reply, well my chain is a windows laptop connected via usb to Soekris 2541 dac/amp then xlr adapter to 4.4mm balanced cable to hd800s. Right now I plan to use the 2451 internal amp for some time and then switch back to 789 amp, just to see if Im able to hear a difference.

if I feed the Hugo 2 with the noisy USB signal from my work laptop it sounds clearly worse than the cheaper Mojo fed with a clean digital signal

Actually I dont hear any noice from the usb signal, if I turn the volume way down is complete silence, no sound in the background. If im wrong please educate me.

Toslik optical connection from a Macbook Pro

I plan to buy a macbook just to stream my music library more comfortable, to use optical connection you must buy an adapter right? Isnt that making things worst? Not better conect directly via usb? Just asking. Btw I reproduce all my music with Audirvana.

disbled all digital processing upstream of the DAC, that can also mee up the signal.

Can you explain that to me? I vent read anything about this ever. Just googled it and found nothing

the right music style - I find classical concerts, Jazz and Acoustic music to be most

Well you just teached me something very important, before I used to use any track. Thanks

 

[surfgeorge]

Hello, thanks for reply, well my chain is a windows laptop connected via usb to Soekris 2541 dac/amp then xlr adapter to 4.4mm balanced cable to hd800s. Right now I plan to use the 2451 internal amp for some time and then switch back to 789 amp, just to see if Im able to hear a difference.

Actually I dont hear any noice from the usb signal, if I turn the volume way down is complete silence, no sound in the background. If im wrong please educate me.

I plan to buy a macbook just to stream my music library more comfortable, to use optical connection you must buy an adapter right? Isnt that making things worst? Not better conect directly via usb? Just asking. Btw I reproduce all my music with Audirvana.

Can you explain that to me? I vent read anything about this ever. Just googled it and found nothing


Well you just teached me something very important, before I used to use any track. Thanks

Digital signal quality:
Unfortunately a bad digital signal is not that easy to identify - my DAC is also dead silent with the bad Windows laptop USB signal.
The only way I know is to do listening tests, and that's hard to do with just one DAC, easier for me when I use my Chord Mojo and Hugo 2 and swap digital signals between them. The way the differences show is again in the soundstage, where the Windows PC USB signal leads to a flat and compressed soundstage, a loss of note definition and timing. Toslink on the other hand creates a smoother sound, better note separation both in timing and positioning, a deeper soundstage.
If you are a tinkerer, a good solution is a Raspberry Pi based streamer with an Allo Digione Signature or USBridge hardware add-on.
I use the regular Allo Digione in my stereo setup with RPi 4 and squeezebox light software with Logitech Music Server (LMS) all controlled by the iPhone App iPeng
A USB stick in the RPI gives me access to my music files, Wifi or Ethernet cable gives access to Tidal and Internet radio.
The Digione works really well, gives a very clean signal.
My MacBook Pro 2014 sounds also good though, much better than the Windows PC (MBP battery powered, never tested it while charging)
If you have a DAP, that could also be a good source, at least for testing and comparing with other sources.


Upsampling:
I am biased by the repeated statements of Rob Watts, the designer behind the CHORD DACs. He keeps repeating that (at least for his DACs) there should be no upsampling or digital processing, but rather the original bit perfect signal should be fed to the DAC. The reasoning is that the digital processing will introduce errors, which can mess up the DAC conversion accuracy. He has more technical comments about conversion to other digital formats (like DSD) and again strongly recommends to send the unaltered signal to the DAC.
To be on the safe side I would recommend to first try to get the cleanest possible signal chain to hear what the DAC is capable of, get used to a baseline. From that baseline you can then experiment and try to make changes, with the knowledge how the system sounds in it's pure form.

A couple of tracks from my test list in Tidal:
https://tidal.com/browse/track/15666682
https://tidal.com/browse/track/8439077
https://tidal.com/browse/track/4961982
https://tidal.com/browse/track/77607310
https://tidal.com/browse/track/69664922

 

[Eyaul]

Digital signal quality:
Unfortunately a bad digital signal is not that easy to identify - my DAC is also dead silent with the bad Windows laptop USB signal.
The only way I know is to do listening tests, and that's hard to do with just one DAC, easier for me when I use my Chord Mojo and Hugo 2 and swap digital signals between them. The way the differences show is again in the soundstage, where the Windows PC USB signal leads to a flat and compressed soundstage, a loss of note definition and timing. Toslink on the other hand creates a smoother sound, better note separation both in timing and positioning, a deeper soundstage.
If you are a tinkerer, a good solution is a Raspberry Pi based streamer with an Allo Digione Signature or USBridge hardware add-on.
I use the regular Allo Digione in my stereo setup with RPi 4 and squeezebox light software with Logitech Music Server (LMS) all controlled by the iPhone App iPeng
A USB stick in the RPI gives me access to my music files, Wifi or Ethernet cable gives access to Tidal and Internet radio.
The Digione works really well, gives a very clean signal.
My MacBook Pro 2014 sounds also good though, much better than the Windows PC (MBP battery powered, never tested it while charging)
If you have a DAP, that could also be a good source, at least for testing and comparing with other sources.


Upsampling:
I am biased by the repeated statements of Rob Watts, the designer behind the CHORD DACs. He keeps repeating that (at least for his DACs) there should be no upsampling or digital processing, but rather the original bit perfect signal should be fed to the DAC. The reasoning is that the digital processing will introduce errors, which can mess up the DAC conversion accuracy. He has more technical comments about conversion to other digital formats (like DSD) and again strongly recommends to send the unaltered signal to the DAC.
To be on the safe side I would recommend to first try to get the cleanest possible signal chain to hear what the DAC is capable of, get used to a baseline. From that baseline you can then experiment and try to make changes, with the knowledge how the system sounds in it's pure form.

A couple of tracks from my test list in Tidal:
https://tidal.com/browse/track/15666682
https://tidal.com/browse/track/8439077
https://tidal.com/browse/track/4961982
https://tidal.com/browse/track/77607310
https://tidal.com/browse/track/69664922

Hello, thank you very much for so much help. I ve learned a lot from you, something I should have is patience, listening is a skill I will get with time and experience, or thats what I want to believe.
I will also check the tracks you sent me. Thanks again