[CDBacklash]

I'm sure its not important (i.e. I am not sure how to resay).

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Then you probably haven't heard that many amps or sources. I can't believe this statement.

Lots of scientific articles out there that prove what I say is true. I trust science more than I trust your opinion so don't need to have heard lots of amps and dacs to comment on this subject.

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hybris /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think the problem with most of these discussions are relativity. What some people would call a huge difference (probably boosted by a healty dose of placebo), others call hardly audible. With solid state amps and correctly designed digital sources replayed at moderate volume (not pushing either amp), the difference in sound signature will be so little that you probably won't be able to identify a given amp or source correctly 100% of the time in an ABX test, while with different speakers you probably would. Thus it would be correct to say that the difference is comparatively smaller between sources/amps than loudspeakers.

Thank you.

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif I can tell you assuredly that changing such circuits does indeed change the sound, altering even the amount of treble, mids and bass significantly.

I'm not saying there was no difference at all but I believe the amount of difference you heard was far more imagined than real.

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDBacklash /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's interesting people say amps and dacs sound the same when they are using different components which suffer different operational degradation due to heat and their basal efficiency (resulting in corruption of very sensitive audio data). It goes against logic, but I have not heard more than two of each with one being very low quality

I never said there was no difference at all. I am saying the difference is minor compared to the difference of what a speaker/headphone will make. And I am talking amps/dacs that are built to an acceptable spec and not some POS that has issues with heat or efficiency. I took issue with someone who said an amp and/or dac can have just as much SQ difference as a headphone can which is just not true and there is no science whatsover that supports that claim either.

 

[CDBacklash]

Of course. I was speaking from my experience. It's good people will admit there is a difference. I have not been in a situation to ABX

 

[BobMcN]

As any audiophile will tell you. Everything causes a difference in the sound. yes, a new DAC will change th sound, but the better question is what kind of DAC will give you th sound you want?

there's NOS, oversampling, non-oversampling, upsampling, etc. Then you need to consider the output type, which is where you will really hear a difference in the sound.

What exactly is wrong with th sound you have now and what are you tying to get to?

Bob

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lots of scientific articles out there that prove what I say is true. I trust science more than I trust your opinion so don't need to have heard lots of amps and dacs to comment on this subject.

In this hobby, I trust my ears and what I hear. All the measurements and fancy graphs don't telly you much about how the equipment actually sounds when you plug it in your system. You should try that also. I hope science hasn't made you deaf.

 

[krmathis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif In this hobby, I trust my ears and what I hear. All the measurements and fancy graphs don't telly you much about how the equipment actually sounds when you plug it in your system. You should try that also. I hope science hasn't made you deaf.

x2
I trust my own ears more than scientific articles. But to each their own!

 

[hybris]

Anyway, the way the thread starter describes his issues - I'd guess he's better of changing cans - as the differences he'll get with a new DAC will probably be too small to make up for his issues, compared to changing to a pair of cans that has a signature that matches his taste.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDBacklash /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's interesting people say amps and dacs sound the same when they are using different components which suffer different operational degradation due to heat and their basal efficiency (resulting in corruption of very sensitive audio data). It goes against logic, but I have not heard more than two of each with one being very low quality

Ah audiophile's.....

Transducers (the drivers in your headphones) and amps (which amplify and introduce distortion depending on design and purpose) will change the sound. Amps less so, transducers more so. Anybody who has heard multiple amps, tube amps, multiple headphones will all attest to qualitative as well quantitative differences.

If you understand how DACs work, then you know the DAC itself will not change the sound signature if it is properly designed, i.e. any DAC (including the one in my Macbook) will do a fine job of converting the signal. Any DBT will prove this if you are in the "I can tell the difference" club. Given the same input signal (assuming bit-perfect, you choose the source), the two DACs will offer very little differences in measurable sonic attributes from 20-20 (this includes upsampling DACs as well).

The major issues with a DAC component, taken as a whole is the types of inputs/outputs it offers, whether its a completely balanced setup (discrete left and right channel paths from end-to-end), and the power source it uses (most properly designed DACs, this is a NON-ISSUE, but there have been cases with very cheapo designs as well as home-growns where you have to watch out).

Spends the most dollars on music (data) then transducers (headphones) and then amps (within reason) and you will be hi-fi in no time.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not saying there was no difference at all but I believe the amount of difference you heard was far more imagined than real.

There is a great deal of audible difference between many opamps when used in audio circuits. This is why the designers choose one model over another for a particular application. Certain opamps have very noticeable sonic traits. Certain opamps are chosen and recommended for audio applications in both I/V or buffer positions depending on the DAC output design.

You are right in that some are very similar offering subtle differences at best, wider sound stage increased clarity etc... Other offer drastic improvements or in many cases degradations.

You can also measure and see these improvements or degradations in sound quality using a analyzer or other measurement tool.

My guess is you haven't done any experimenting with opamps or you would know different.

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lots of scientific articles out there that prove what I say is true.

Let's see some links.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ah audiophile's..... If you understand how DACs work, then you know the DAC itself will not change the sound signature if it is properly designed, i.e. any DAC (including the one in my Macbook) will do a fine job of converting the signal.

I do understand how DACs work and I know for certain that you are wrong. I take it your assumption is based on nothing more than wishful thinking.

If you want to educate yourself have a look at datasheets for various DACs from Wolfson, TI, or Cirrus Logic.

Or the easier route would be to compare your laptop to a high end DAC based on one of those company's top of the line DAC chip. If you can't hear a major difference you're in the wrong hobby.

Why do you think there's such a big market for non gamer oriented sound cards like the Asus line? It's because when people plug them into their computer they hear a major difference. Even when using equipment that no one would consider audiophile grade.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let's see some links. I do understand how DACs work and I know for certain that you are wrong. I take it your assumption is based on nothing more than wishful thinking.

You haven't really spelled why I'm wrong? DACs today are very sophisticated and are commodity items.

Quote:

If you want to educate yourself have a look at datasheets for various DACs from Wolfson, TI, or Cirrus Logic.

Please explain to me how one DAC chip is sonically better than another based on their datasheet? Please explain to me in the 20-20khz range how one DAC X is better than one DAC Y?

Quote:

Or the easier route would be to compare your laptop to a high end DAC based on one of those company's top of the line DAC chip. If you can't hear a major difference you're in the wrong hobby.

I have owned a Benchmark DAC1, an Apogee MiniDAC, as well have heard a Lavry and Grace Designs m902 as well as my *cheap* MBP onboard DAC. I've owned a SCD-1 as well as a plethora of high-end headphones (my personal fav for a while was a Q010) and amps.

Trust me sir, I am TELLING YOU from not only engineering experience but from hard earn dollars spent, you are mistaken that you can tell the difference between a Wolfson DAC vs a Burr Brown DAC vs insert DAC chip. I am willing to put up a lot of money saying that if I was able to switch out just the DAC chip from Burr Brown to Wolfson to whatever in the same circuit, you wouldn't have a CLUE.

And if you take the time to do a DBT you will be humbled like the rest of us (except that some spend more money than others before they realize where to get the most bang for a buck).

Quote:

Why do you think there's such a big market for non gamer oriented sound cards like the Asus line? It's because when people plug them into their computer they hear a major difference. Even when using equipment that no one would consider audiophile grade.

Whatever makes you happy!

 

[nealric]

Quote:

If you understand how DACs work, then you know the DAC itself will not change the sound signature if it is properly designed, i.e. any DAC (including the one in my Macbook) will do a fine job of converting the signal. Any DBT will prove this if you are in the "I can tell the difference" club. Given the same input signal (assuming bit-perfect, you choose the source), the two DACs will offer very little differences in measurable sonic attributes from 20-20 (this includes upsampling DACs as well).

I know this is not the "DAC" itself, but many non discrete DACs are implemented in a way that causes them to have an awful output. For example, the output on my laptop is full of static and hard drive noise- pretty much ruins any quiet sections in music. Because of this, you would need to be near deaf not to hear the difference between the headphone jack on my laptop and the one on my external DAC.