[Lavalamp]

I'm putting together an M3. I've bought Tangent's crossfeed board as an option.

It strikes me that putting a few capacitors in the signal path before amplification must effect the sonic qualities, however marginal. I note also that there is no true bypass to the crossfeed, once installed.

Any opinions on the level of degradation of the signal by using a crossfeed? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages? Am I being an unhealthily obsessive audiofool?

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

I wouldn't call it a degradation. IMO Crossfeed with headphones makes the sound more realistic and thus more believable.

In any case, it's not going to "degrade" the signal more than simply plugging in a pair of speakers.

 

[Kurt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavalamp Any opinions on the level of degradation of the signal by using a crossfeed? Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages

Crossfeed does degrade the sound for me. Although, probably not for the reason of a few more caps.
All I hear with activated crossfeed is a little of the left sound on the right and vice versa. I do not get a better imaging or any 3D effect at all. Very disturbing.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavalamp Am I being an unhealthily obsessive audiofool?

Maybe, but that’s part of the fun, isn’t it?

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Cross-feed robs the music of harmonic tonal balance; detail, transparency, and resolution just like every other crap device people like to throw in the chain. Your best bet is to buy components that excel in expanding the head stage instead of adding something that is trying to correct one problem, and causing 3, or 4 more at the same time.

 

[Lavalamp]

Thanks all.

Just realised I posted this here, when I meant to post in the DIY section, where it probably belongs.

Is there a moderator in the house?

 

[saint.panda]

lavalamp, what do you mean by no true bypass? Is there no possiblity to switch it on/off or do you mean that the signal will always pass through the crossfeed module's electronic components either way (albeit unaltered leading to no crossfeed effect)? If the latter scenario was the case, I seriously wouldn't worry about it. Personally, I feel that the benefits of the optional crossfeed (when needed) outweigh the possible drawbacks from the corresponding non-purist approach.

I think the crossfeed device is especially helpful to reduce unwanted "ping-pong" effects with certain songs, especially in the lower midrange and bass region, and sometimes provides a slightly better soundstage depth and a more continuous auditory space at the expense of immediacy/intimacy and soundstage width. In any case, the effect is more subtle than you might think is.

 

[jimmyjames8]

I just got my JMT Audio Pimeta with 2 level crossfeed. Phones are HD600 with a Marantz 8260 as source. I can hear absolutely no difference with the cross feed switched in or out. Jon did say however that the circuit does affect the ultimate gain of the amp regardless of whether it is switched in or not. If I buy another amp, I will not add the crossfeed if it is an option. Also, I noticed no difference (unless it sounded slightly worse) with a Headroom Total Airhead, iPod and Senn PX100's and Sen HD555, and the Airheads cross feed.

 

[ken36]

At this point, I'm not a great fan of crossfeed. In my case, it's more fun to hear the distinct separation between channels.

 

[sionghchan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CRESCENDOPOWER Cross-feed robs the music of harmonic tonal balance; detail, transparency, and resolution just like every other crap device people like to throw in the chain. Your best bet is to buy components that excel in expanding the head stage instead of adding something that is trying to correct one problem, and causing 3, or 4 more at the same time.

I thought that cross-feed was to increase our audio stereoscopic imaging capability (i.e. increasing our head-stage). Does this not work? Also, HOW ELSE can a component increase your head-stage without cross-feed (i.e. a good stereo image)?

Much help to this audiophile newbie (i.e. me!) is needed! Thanks!

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sionghchan I thought that cross-feed was to increase our audio stereoscopic imaging capability (i.e. increasing our head-stage). Does this not work? Also, HOW ELSE can a component increase your head-stage without cross-feed (i.e. a good stereo image)? Much help to this audiophile newbie (i.e. me!) is needed! Thanks!

Well, it is supposed to, but the problem is it does a very bad job of it, and in no way sounds anywhere near comparable to the natural head staging of quality components. Buy headphones that have a large head stage right from the beginning, and complement them with electronics that are well known for imaging, and openness. Combine this with a high-resolution source, and the proper cables, and you will forget that you ever heard the word cross feed. All these extra toys that people like to put into the signal path do nothing, but mask the purity, and fidelity of your system, and the best advise I could give anyone is to tell them to stay away from them altogether.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

I note also that there is no true bypass to the crossfeed, once installed.

If you add a proper switch it can be taken entirely out of the system when not in use.there if/when you want it not if you have no need and will harm absolutly nothing in the audio signal when switched out unless you are convinced the additional switch is evil.

The two extreme camps have it that

1-It can not be heard so why bother
2-it can be heard and destroys the signal so must be crap

Fortunately most people live in the middle and use what they need for the use that thing designed for on a "per need" basis.Many do actually find the network useful for recordings that really never had any business being stereo recordings.
Most first generation stereo recordings which are no more than two mono signals an/or poorly idealised modern day stereo recordings.Some of the best music ever recorded was in the early days but brutal to listen to with with cans !Not music but artificial in the extreme with no middle content at all and with each instrument or voice in one ear cup or the other.If there is a more unnatural sounding music I do not know it !
The control preamps of the time added "stereo blend" controls to try and correct for this and even three channel stereo was very common to fill in this "hole" in the middle (most preamps had a mono mix center output but you needed a third amp and speaker.NO no big deal for a true audiophile !).
Problem recognised and solved but there being no high fidelity headphone usage back then it was a stright up full frequency L/R mix with maybe a low end cut to eliminate bass frequencies from the center.Bass IS and always has been a real b*tch to get right in a listening room and trying to get three full scale woofers to play nice not always a good idea (see modern surround systems).We are talking music lovers not audio engineers and no internet at the time to get instant feedback/solutions for a disastrous sound.

Zero L/R interchannel crosstalk unless provided by the "air" where the left speaker is heard by the right ear and the right speaker by the left ear.You know which speaker is dominant and where the sound originates but you still get cues from the other.
This is what sets the stereo image.This diffuse sound field where the two channels try to recreate the space of a larger event.Filling in the middle insted of two distinct sound sources.
With headphones it is your head that prevents this from happening.Because the individual left and right cups are closely coupled to your head and your head is a solid mass (some more than others

) there is no way for this "center fill diffuse field" to occur other than electronically and that is the domain of the interaraul headphone crossfeed network.If this "blending" were to be non frequency selective as in the case above it would close in the image and make it very one dimensional with headphones so not an option.
It was discovered however that if this "blend" were made at selective frequencies the image could be actually expaned while adding content to the middle where your head prevents this from happening naturally.Rather than the all or nothing of the early stereo consoles the response is tailored specifically for headphone use to correct for a known problem.Some swear by it,others swear at it but that is what personal choice is all about.

Then there is a group that can not do without crossfeed if they use headphones.This ALL left content to left ear and ALL right content to right ear of headphone use actually gives some listening fatique.They may like the sound of their chosen cans and amp and have a wonderful source but after some small amount of time have to just walk away due to there being something wrong.They do not know what is wrong but the annoyance level is there.For them a crossfeed network is the difference between short periods of listening with breaks or long sessions enjoying music in privacy.

Finally for late night DVDs a crossfeed is an essential.This is not critical listening so the argument of "destruction" not valid while listening without is damn near as unnatural as early stereo recordings.You NEED a middle image when you eyes are focused on a video monitor or the disconnect from reality blows the entire illusion.Side and rear directional cues would be nice but not essential.

Plenty of content on the pros and cons if you do a search here at Head-Fi with links to all pertinant technical information from all sides so in the end it is up to the end user to decide if they want in or not.I use mine but not all the time unless for movie viewing then it is an essential for me personally.

YMMV of course and probably will

 

[saint.panda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sionghchan I thought that cross-feed was to increase our audio stereoscopic imaging capability (i.e. increasing our head-stage). Does this not work? Also, HOW ELSE can a component increase your head-stage without cross-feed (i.e. a good stereo image)? Much help to this audiophile newbie (i.e. me!) is needed! Thanks!

Here's some information on crossfeed:
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-on.../crossfeed.htm

http://www.headphone.com/products/fa...room-crossfeed
(Also check out the subsequent sections on "How we hear", "Headphone imaging", etc. Headroom did a very good job with that section.)

Basically, the crossfeed takes part of the signal from the right channel and feeds it to left channel and vice versa with a slight time delay. It tries to simulate the interaural time difference as in the real world. It's also a somewhat different soundstage alteration than you would get with upgrading headphones/amps/source/cables. Whereas better gear improves on the soundstaging for instance in regards to size, better pinpoint imaging, better focus on the instruments, etc. the crossfeed does more a job of altering the soundstage's shape. Whether that's desirable is arguable of course.

Although it may not be the purist approach, sometimes the music sounds better to me with the crossfeed engaged, especially with recordings where some instruments are only on the left and others only on the right channel (e.g. older recordings); and it can help to reduce listening fatigue.


Edit: rickcr42 said it better and more pithy than anybody could. Listen to him.

 

[warpdriver]

Good post rick.

Crossfeed is a tool. It's a tool that is useful for some recordings. For my late night DVD watching, some kind of HRTF processor is essential. Similarly, on older stereo recordings, I can't stand the unnatural left/right balance of the mix. It's enough to make me want to tear my headphones off and go back to speakers. Soundstaging in headphones, by definition, cannot be natural, because you are not hearing the same thing that the studio engineer intended when he recorded and mixed the source material with a target of speaker listening.

I don't really buy into the purist approach at all costs. If a processor or tool is capable of increasing my enjoyment of music, then it is useful. Like everything you have to weigh the tradeoffs.

It's possible to design a crossfeed that is bypassable with a high quality switch, so saying the all crossfeed circuits are bad is silly.

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Quote:

Soundstaging in headphones, by definition, cannot be natural, because you are not hearing the same thing that the studio engineer intended when he recorded and mixed the source material with a target of speaker listening.

Yeah, I wonder if that studio engineer also intended for his recordings to be butchered by an electronic processor that sounds so artificial that in no way anyone can say that it replicates the stereo imagining of even a $200 pair of bookshelf speakers. No electronic device is going to turn a pair of headphones into a speaker system, because no electronic device can even come close to duplicating a set of speakers in a real room.
I will give some of these designers of cross feed some credit, because they tried, but I hate to break the news to them, they failed, because all cross feed does is take away any advantages headphones have over speakers.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

Yeah, I wonder if that studio engineer also intended for his recordings to be butchered by an electronic processor that sounds so artificial that in no way anyone can say that it replicates the stereo imagining of even a $200 pair of bookshelf speakers. No electronic device is going to turn a pair of headphones into a speaker system, because no electronic device can even come close to duplicating a set of speakers in a real room.

Perfect imaging in headphones and amp is meaningless if the recording has none to start with.
Home theater and movie viewing is MEANT to have directionals and are extremely unnatural without.
Early Beatle recordings (just one example) have all or nothing left or right.
Drums left channel only,one vocal right,another vocal left,third take your choice-no panning at all !Guitars,keyboards all the same.single channels and very unnatural.
Not mixed for stereo because no one knew how and had no experience so what came off the four tracks went to a dedicated channel instead of some "middle" for mid content.Remember just before that the Beatles Albums were pure mono recordings (and better than the "forced" stereo that came next)
You can't "butcher" what never had any merits to begin other than musical virtuosity.The transferrence from the mic to the end product not even close to good except tonally and musically.No image to destroy since there never was one.
If all of you think your "remastered" CDs do not have electronic enhancement both tonally and spacially you are fooling yourself.The crossfeeed is no more than a part time tool to correct deficiencies for some and full time duty to allow extended listening sessions for others to avoid listening fatique.No one is forced into having this add-on but it is a good thing for those who want in