[Ebonyks]

I'm looking around to upgrading my ns500v, but i question if it's really worthwhile. After all, i'm only using it for digital output at the moment (I've got a few SACD's at the moment, but nothing that would make me pay very much for a new player on the SACD merit alone), and i was thinking if it was really worthwhile to upgrade the player into something nicer, as apposed to spending the money on something like cables

So, i ask you guys, do digital outputs really vary alot between players? (Aside from different digital output formats, like BNC, which reccomendations for cheap BNC digi-out players are appreacated)

 

[Spad]

This ought to be an interesting thread. If you decide to upgrade, I hope you keep your NS500 long enough to seriously compare the two. I don't think you'll find a worthwhile difference, but, not knowing for sure, I'm also intrigued by the question.

 

[Ebonyks]

Ohhh, no, i'm not buying another player until i know for sure

I'll see what i can do though, tuberoller's meeting is comming up in april...

 

[elrod-tom]

This is a very good question, and I'd really like to know the answer.

I know that if you look at the Mod Wright website, they take pains to mention the ways in which they can optimize a player for use as a transport. One of the things that they do is mod the digital out. That leads me to believe that there might be something to it.

I do know that there is a significant difference between transports. I've done an A-B-C between different players that all had digital out, and I could consistently pick one out of the three as having the best sound. Is this because of the transport (I'm thinking it was the best of the three) or the quality of the digital out, or a combination of the two? Dunno.

 

[markl]

Yes, they do vary. Some transports are better, some digital sections and digital outs are better. Digital "jitter" can be higher or lower in various digital outputs. Unfortunately, the digital out is a lot like the headphone jack on most components-- an afterthought, and not something that you can readily find specs for. I suspect spending more money on a better CDP does not necessarily insure a better digital out any more than it gaurantees a better headphone jack.

Some people will say digital outs just transmit ones and zeroes (this is not true, a digital signal is the presence or absence of an electrical impulse), and they're all the same-- don't believe them.

Mark

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Some people will say digital outs just transmit ones and zeroes (this is not true, a digital signal is the presence or absence of an electrical impulse), and they're all the same-- don't believe them.

I'm afraid I'm one of them, Markl. A digital data stream consists of nothing more than a series of frequency specific logic level shifts. On an oscilloscope, this appears as a square wave as the amplitude alternates between logic ones and zeros. On some continually biased systems, both ones and zeros are represented (assuming positive logic) by voltage levels. The only "pulse" involved is the upstream trigger pulse which switches the multivibrator's output state.

This was a boring subject when I was intimately involved with it 30-odd years ago. It hasn't gotten better.

 

[markl]

Spad,
So I guess your advice would be for him to sell his NS500V, get a cheap PCDP and use the toslink out, and pocket the savings? After all, it's just ones and zeroes and won't make any difference what he uses as a source/transport...

BTW, I used to have a player (Sony 333ES) with a Modwright modified digital out and damping mods to improve performnance as a transport. And yes, it was better, noticeably, appreciably better than my current source's digital out (Kenwood Sovereign 5700). Both are $1200 list price players, so they're in the same ball-park price/performance wise, so this was a fair comparison. BTW, I can also hear differences in digital cables, another "imposibility", so I guess I'm a real kook...

Mark

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Spad, So I guess your advice would be for him to sell his NS500V, get a cheap PCDP and use the toslink out, and pocket the savings? After all, it's just ones and zeroes and won't make any difference what he uses as a source/transport...

I don't want to burst your balloon, so perhaps you'd better take a moment to hide it, Markl.

Yep, they're just ones and zeros. What did you expect, larger, better, or prettier ones and zeros? These are the same bits that create the text and images you see on your screen as you read this. There is no qualitative difference.

A great deal of magic is possible with high-end players, but it has nothing whatever to do with the digital bit stream. If you're feeding an outboard DAC, the final result will be the same. If not, there should be a significant difference.

Quote:

BTW, I can also hear differences in digital cables, another "imposibility", so I guess I'm a real kook...

Well, far be it from me to argue with that! It's probably because you demand those premium rose colored laser mods.

 

[Ebonyks]

Yes, but they're 1's and 0's in a certain order

Seriously, the logic behind the argument is simple. While in essence, all digital outs are the same, jitter exists, and can become a problem, with an inferior digital out. Basically, jitter is the rate of which the 0's and 1's come out of the device, and audio signals are processed through it, thus why data cables do not matter, and why audio digital cables do matter, and prevent distortion of them

 

[aeberbach]

Here's an idea that I haven't got time to try, but it could either prove that certain digital transports are better than others, or that they're all the same.

Write a driver for a sound card with coax/optical digital input and simply log every bit of data that comes in the port to a file - or, make a running checksum if space isn't available. Play a selection of CDs with different players and compare the resulting files.

 

[markl]

One of the many things tweakers like to do to their CDPs is to replace poor quality clocks found in most mass-market players. There is a rather large aftermarket business in mod-ing players to boost performance, and swapping the clock is one of the basic mods. My understanding is, better clock = lower "jitter". Lower jitter = better transmission of data with fewer errors. fewer errors = greater fidelity. After a quick search (not interested enough to make a major study), I found this page that talks about "jitter" and compares many of the devices that sit between your source/transport and your DAC. These are essentially external clocks which take the incoming digital datastream and re-clock it before it is sent to the DAC for processing. I just point to this page to show that there is a lot of thought/discussion, innovation (and yes, certainly some quackery) that has been put toward improving fidelity of digital output. So I'm a kook, but I'm by no means the only one out there.
http://www.monarchyaudio.com/DIP4.htm

And you still nicely avoided the real question, which I'd like to put to you again:
Quote:

So I guess your advice would be for him to sell his NS500V, get a cheap PCDP and use the toslink out, and pocket the savings? After all, it's just ones and zeroes and won't make any difference what he uses as a source/transport...

Mark

 

[Ebonyks]

Even more than the arguement of jitter in itself, there's the argument of RCA verses BNC, of which RCA isn't really designed to handle digital signals while BNC is. Hmmm, the players are 300 on audiogon...

Let me upgrade everything else first, i'll take a look at it though... someday...

 

[elrod-tom]

I have had both the MSB Digital Director and the GW Labs DSP. Both are designed to reduce jitter, and both make a SIGNIFICANT difference in the quality of digital playback. I don't know the science of it, but I'm sure I'm right about this one.

 

[Spad]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl And you still nicely avoided the real question, which I'd like to put to you again: So I guess your advice would be for him to sell his NS500V, get a cheap PCDP and use the toslink out, and pocket the savings? After all, it's just ones and zeroes and won't make any difference what he uses as a source/transport...

Hmmm, perhaps you missed this:

A great deal of magic is possible with high-end players, but it has nothing whatever to do with the digital bit stream. If you're feeding an outboard DAC, the final result will be the same. If not, there should be a significant difference.

What part of this don't you understand?

 

[markl]

OK, I'll ask it another way. If you were given the choice between a Sony SCD-1 or bottom of the line Sony PCDP to use as your own personal transport, which would you choose? And you can't say you'd take the SCD-1, sell it and buy the PCDP, that's cheating.

Mark