[KrooLism]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah, well you better get used to long disc load times for these so called high end source components. The Ayre Acoustics CX-7 Evolution took between 8 - 12 seconds to load a CD. My Denon DVD 5910ci takes about 15 - 20 seconds to identify and load the type of disc I put in. The Ayre C-5xe takes at least 12 - 18 seconds to identify and load a disc. I agree with the others that it is better to get a one box unit to save money.

That is so stupid. Just because we have disposable income doesn't mean we have disposable time.

I auditioned the Musical Fidelity A5 and A3.5 and that thing is the fastest machine I have come actoss. About 2-3 seconds for CD's to load. That's why I was leaning so much towards the kW SACD but it is pricy.

 

[infinitesymphony]

Is there any reason why a high-end player would take longer to recognize a disc?

Also, I'll throw in another vote for Pioneer, like I always do. I own seven pieces of Pio equipment, the ages of which vary from 1994 to 2005, and I've never had a single problem with any of them... ever. Plus, their universal players can be found on-the-cheap in the used marketplace. So far, I've picked up two DV-578A-S and a DV-563A for an average price of $40 each.

 

[chesebert]

One could speculate that the high end CDP does not just read the disc starting from scratch, rather it builds a algorithm on exactly how the laser should read the disc. There are 'data' on the CD which tells what kind of reflective surface the disc is, whether its a CDR or not, and whether the CDR used gold or cyanide, among others, as the the recording dye. The CDP can also-fine tune the laser output based on the reflective property from the disc.

In all, many reasons why hi-end CDP are slower, because of those extra steps it needs to take to ensure the very very best reading possible.

 

[infinitesymphony]

That sounds like a reasonable explanation and a very cool feature that might help to justify some of the high price tag. Aren't most PC drives similar in the way that they determine disc characteristics, or would you guess that a high-end CD player uses more advanced algorithms?

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by infinitesymphony /img/forum/go_quote.gif That sounds like a reasonable explanation and a very cool feature that might help to justify some of the high price tag. Aren't most PC drives similar in the way that they determine disc characteristics, or would you guess that a high-end CD player uses more advanced algorithms?

I think you can access some of the subdata on PC with some software, but it takes time to access those data. I think my Lite-On took 12sec just to ID the manufacturer of the CDR and the dye type.

I don't know enough about what, besides the data, gets recorded, or stamped onto the CD, which the CDP can, with the right software, read back.

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrooLism /img/forum/go_quote.gif That is so stupid. Just because we have disposable income doesn't mean we have disposable time. I auditioned the Musical Fidelity A5 and A3.5 and that thing is the fastest machine I have come actoss. About 2-3 seconds for CD's to load. That's why I was leaning so much towards the kW SACD but it is pricy.

I think MF cdps are "fast" across the board, as that's about the range of my MF NuVista as well. Want to hear their kW player as well, see how much they've improved. I've heard what their kW monoblocks can do, so if it's anything like that, definitely worth an audition.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif One could speculate that the high end CDP does not just read the disc starting from scratch, rather it builds a algorithm on exactly how the laser should read the disc. There are 'data' on the CD which tells what kind of reflective surface the disc is, whether its a CDR or not, and whether the CDR used gold or cyanide, among others, as the the recording dye. The CDP can also-fine tune the laser output based on the reflective property from the disc. In all, many reasons why hi-end CDP are slower, because of those extra steps it needs to take to ensure the very very best reading possible.

I guess they just forgot to mention this highly desirable profit increasing feature in their sales literature and owner's manual.

It might be that it's just a partially poor design and (caution extreme cynicism!

) they figure audiophiles will invent an excuse like "it builds a algorithm on exactly how the laser should read the disc" to overlook the flaw.

Based upon reading reviews of over $10K CD players that malfunction, which is inexcusable, I'd lean towards this annoyance as simply poor designing.

 

[A<aA?]

its difficult because the last thing i want to upgrade is my source.

im using a CD player atm and i was thinking of going the PC/DAC route because i won't have to keep changing CDs, and faster to find and play as well as preserving the discs.

i was considering a mini pc, 15" screen, foobar with an emu soundcard to a benchmark to amp with 2 fast hard drives, used purely for music.

otherwise, what are the decent all rounder CD players now around the $1500 mark?

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyeteeth /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess they just forgot to mention this highly desirable profit increasing feature in their sales literature and owner's manual. It might be that it's just a partially poor design and (caution extreme cynicism! ) they figure audiophiles will invent an excuse like "it builds a algorithm on exactly how the laser should read the disc" to overlook the flaw. Based upon reading reviews of over $10K CD players that malfunction, which is inexcusable, I'd lean towards this annoyance as simply poor designing.

your arguments are of no moment as your opinions are based purely on speculation with no factual support.

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by chesebert /img/forum/go_quote.gif your arguments are of no moment as your opinions are based purely on speculation with no factual support.

Which part? That slow loading multi-thousand dollar cd players do trumpet publicly that they are building a algorithm on exactly how the laser should read the disc? Or that HIFI manufacturers have only the deepest respect for audiophiles? Or that a player like the $43K Zanden isn't "the worst-measuring digital product I have ever encountered" according to John Atkinson? Zanden claimed it was a defective unit. Heh, defective $43K CD player. We can only speculate on how that is possible.

 

[Welly Wu]

I know that the Burr Brown PCM-1792 DACs are the best ones available for both my Denon DVD 5910ci and the Ayre Acoustics C-5xe albeit mine has separated PCM/DSD signal processing in dual differential mode while the latter includes XLR balanced outputs along with the custom Ayre DSP algorithms. That said, I have auditioned the Benchmark Media Systems DAC-1 (sans 24bit/96kHz USB) and I find it sonically competitive and a high value product (especially considering its features set and prestigious accolades won). My point? Though they do use totally different DACs, I think the OP would be well to consider the fact that a DAC or traditional component CD/DVD player are not necessarily better or worse and other factors such as single/multi-format audio/video playback capabilities, warranty, dealer support, etc. are important too. Finally, audition before you purchase whenever possible.

 

[Welly Wu]

eyeteeth:

Did you happen to know that both used and new Denon universal DVD players frequently wind up in either of the two authorized Denon USA repair centers in New Jersey? Allied Electronics, where I had my used Denon DVD 5910ci in for repairs, said it is "fairly common." This is Denon's current flagship universal DVD player and it has an MSRP of $3,800.00 USD. I find that to be totally unacceptable that such a product should be prone to damage and in need of repairs on a regular occurance. The other issue I take to task Denon USA with is the fact that I had to spend an extra $300.00 USD for the CI (custom installation) upgrades which amounted to no more than a simple firmware update via a secret Denon CD-ROM disc so that I could have Denon Link III and 1080p enabled on my machine.

 

[bordins]

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrooLism /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're spending over $5000 on a CD player, is the inbuilt DAC as good as, if not, better than the likes of say the DA-10, DAC1 or M902?

I used to own Rotel 1072, Marantz SA-11S1, but now have Revox B-225 and recently Ori Modded Zhaolu DAC.

You would be surprised on:

1. How Ori Modded Zhaolu DAC can beat any $$$$$ top-notch player !
2. How easily we believe $$$$$ CDPs really sound "good" !

Well engineered products may not need to be expensive. It requires only smart engineering, plus cheap labor (from China). My friends own top-notch players such as Accuphase, Mark Levinson, Krell or dCS, so I know what they sound.

Have a chance to audition Ori Modded Zhaolu DAC on a budget universal DVD player. You would be shocked when you hear its sonics as we were. All my description is "extreme" sonic quality.

 

[Geoff Rymer]

Extreme in a Patrick/Valhalla sense?

 

[eyeteeth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu /img/forum/go_quote.gif eyeteeth: Did you happen to know that both used and new Denon universal DVD players frequently wind up in either of the two authorized Denon USA repair centers in New Jersey? Allied Electronics, where I had my used Denon DVD 5910ci in for repairs, said it is "fairly common." This is Denon's current flagship universal DVD player and it has an MSRP of $3,800.00 USD. I find that to be totally unacceptable that such a product should be prone to damage and in need of repairs on a regular occurance. The other issue I take to task Denon USA with is the fact that I had to spend an extra $300.00 USD for the CI (custom installation) upgrades which amounted to no more than a simple firmware update via a secret Denon CD-ROM disc so that I could have Denon Link III and 1080p enabled on my machine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bordins /img/forum/go_quote.gif I used to own Rotel 1072, Marantz SA-11S1, but now have Revox B-225 and recently Ori Modded Zhaolu DAC. You would be surprised on: 1. How Ori Modded Zhaolu DAC can beat any $$$$$ top-notch player ! 2. How easily we believe $$$$$ CDPs really sound "good" ! Well engineered products may not need to be expensive. It requires only smart engineering, plus cheap labor (from China). My friends own top-notch players such as Accuphase, Mark Levinson, Krell or dCS, so I know what they sound. Have a chance to audition Ori Modded Zhaolu DAC on a budget universal DVD player. You would be shocked when you hear its sonics as we were. All my description is "extreme" sonic quality.

No Welly I'm not surprised by the Denon being flawed. Cars are recalled all the time, laptop batteries explode, why would CD players be exempt from insufficient testing. I have a friend who works in a high-end shop and he's given me humorous tours of production and design flaws from poorly assembled speakers to slightly off axis turntable platters to resonant racks, etc. Each of these models got the big thumbs up in TAS and Stereophile. Another friend owns a shop (that deals in only British gear), I was speaking to him for an hour two nights ago and he won't bring in either the Apollo or Saturn until the software issues are fixed. Actually he's a tough customer as a dealer and won't bring in anything that doesn't sound good regardless of name, reputation, heritage- he's a good guy.

I agree with you bordins about price and value, and Welly about the DAC1. I also get to hear really expensive gear, flawed and flawless, and I find that listening to be a good reality check with regard to diminishing returns in digital playback. I feel queasy contemplating spending $5,000 on a CD player today that'll probably get trumped two years from now by something that may cost $800. I guess it depends upon individual wealth what good value is.

For the OP I think the best value is a DAC like the Lavry DA10, Benchmark DAC1, Stello DA100. The performance is competitive and reclocking has most any transport fine. Also, isn't the transport often the same in CD players that are $500 and $5,000?