How does older = better sound quality?
Jul 15, 2003 at 3:06 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 26

MaxHeifetz

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I've seen a lot of threads about how a CD player from 1992 can be superior in sound quality to almost all the players made today. I was just wondering...how can this possibly be? I mean, if we were talking instruments, I would almost instantly agree that a 1742 Guarneri Del Gesu violin would sound better than a modern one or a 1933 Steinway better than a piano made today, but electronics!? I have always assumed that the more time passing by = better technology. Apparently it doesn't seem true in the audio portion. Can anyone explain why?
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 3:40 AM Post #2 of 26
MaxHeifetz,

There are several reasons why the audio quality had deteriorated in the newer players:

1. There's waaaaaay too much cost-cutting going on in the portable audio industry. (Cheaper parts = poorer performance = poorer reliability.) Get the point?

2. There is far too much desire among the big portable audio manufacturers to squeeze every last hour of battery life in the newest players (you see, ultra-long battery life equals significantly worsened sound quality).

3. There is far too much emphasis on audio compression in the newest PCDPs: Many of those newer players have compressed anti-skip that cannot be turned off at all whatsoever. And few of those even have a "non-compressed" anti-skip mode, let alone an "Off" mode. So, the resulting CD sound quality ends up being as wretched as a typical 128kbps MP3 music file, with all this compression going on.

So, if the portable audio industry had moved forward with what they think would be in the consumer's best interests AND what we think would be in our very own best interests, the resulting PCDPs would cost far more $$$ than what almost everyone is willing to spend - even at the low end. (And I know, everybody wants it cheap today, in these troubled economic times worldwide. So something had to give - and unfortunately, it's the sound quality that had to go.)
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 3:50 AM Post #3 of 26
MaxHeifetz, in addition to Eagle_Driver's comments, i think the headphone output power affects audio quality as well. today's modern portable cd players has less power compared to older models. my guess is that one reason why they have less power is, manufacturers are wary of potential lawsuits, in case some consumers would sue them as a result of hearing damage caused by listening to portable players.

smily_headphones1.gif
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 4:02 AM Post #4 of 26
Quote:

Originally posted by durian
...i think the headphone output power affects audio quality as well. today's modern portable cd players has less power compared to older models. my guess is that one reason why they have less power is, manufacturers are wary of potential lawsuits, in case some consumers would sue them as a result of hearing damage caused by listening to portable players.


Not quite. The reduced output power is more likely a direct cause of the second point that I stated: maximum battery life. Very-high-power headphone outputs in portables are also very power-hungry to begin with - almost as power-hungry as a stable CD transport motor is. (Some crappy CD motors are also extremely power-hungry, due to the primitive, archaic motor design.)
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 5:17 AM Post #5 of 26
Quote:

Originally posted by durian
my guess is that one reason why they have less power is, manufacturers are wary of potential lawsuits,


I don't think so. The last two Discmans I got (DE307, DEJ756, both before my enlightenment at this domain) came with a booklet warning against using headphones at high volumes. Both also have a voluntary volume-limiting system.

Most headphones aren't power-hungry. Not many people run HD600s out of their portable on a regular basis. Look around - 95% of the people with a modern PCDP use stock headphones. Most of the rest use 32-40 ohm headphones. The Sony V-crap headphones are all 40 ohms or below, if I recall correctly.
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 5:29 AM Post #6 of 26
Quote:

Originally posted by stereth
Most headphones aren't power-hungry. Not many people run HD600s out of their portable on a regular basis. Look around - 95% of the people with a modern PCDP use stock headphones. Most of the rest use 32-40 ohm headphones. The Sony V-crap headphones are all 40 ohms or below, if I recall correctly.


I don't know why, but some of the stock headphones are (relatively) power-hungry! (That is, certain stock headphones are relatively low in efficiency and relatively low in sensitivity.) And some of the stock headphones are so inefficient that most PCDPs can barely drive them to adequately high levels, insofar as headphone-out power ratings are concerned.

It's strange, all right. The MDR-027 Light Style headphones that Sony packages with most of their U.S.-market portable players are less efficient than most other stock headphones, so that you'll have to crank up the volume all the way to maximum just to hear much audio, even if that audio is UPOA (Unidentified Part Of Audio).
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 7:09 AM Post #7 of 26
MD... that is the reason that modern [portable] CD players suck...

MD was a dieing horse, so... if you can make MD sound better than CD... wow, MD is great, listen - sounds better than the original CD - must buy one!
rolleyes.gif


...all imo of course, and what Eagle_Driver said is somewhat more accurate... but, I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't wrong
wink.gif
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 12:59 PM Post #8 of 26
I don't really buy the conspiracy theory...
Technology has moved on tremendously over the past years, the problem is just that PCDP manufactures have come to the conclusion that it's not sound quality that sells players (and if you forget about the vanishingly small minority that we are here, they're very probably right, unfortunately). So the effort doesn't go into sound quality, but other things - MP3 playback, several days of battery life, minutes of compressed antishock memory...
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 1:47 PM Post #9 of 26
so does all this mean that even inexpensive regular home audio cd or dvd players today are far better than the best portable cd players available?

say....a $100 panasonic dvd player for example...

what exactly do these classic cd players stack up against today?
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 2:26 PM Post #11 of 26
Quote:

Originally posted by princeclassic
so does all this mean that even inexpensive regular home audio cd or dvd players today are far better than the best portable cd players available?

say....a $100 panasonic dvd player for example...


Well, not all inexpensive regular home CD or DVD players are all that much better than the very best of today's portable CD players. The very bottom-of-the-line home players also suffer from the very same cost-cutting practices as most PCDPs have been. Moreover, the DAC technonogy has not improved uniformly across home CDP lines: The big-name mass-market home CDP manufacturers have stuck with the very same 1-bit compression-based DACs that they had first introduced 10 years ago - at least for their lower-end models! The result is a home CDP that actually underperforms the best of the classic old PCDPs (and performs no better than a few of the very best of today's PCDPs, as well). And even if you spend more $$$ (say, $300 to $500) on a home CDP, the big brands would rather sell you a multi-featured (with multiple titling and playback options and *cough,gag,choke* MP3 capability) 400-disc jukebox that suffers from the very same cost-cutting crap as their lower lines, than sell you a modestly-featured 5-disc carousel changer whose primary goal is sound quality. And consumers are trapped in between. (Sony and Pioneer tried to sell home CDPs to both markets - with mixed results.)

The biggest improvement in home CDP's DAC and sound quality over the past few years happens in the lesser-known brand names - Denon, Yamaha and the so-called "audiophile" brands.
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 6:16 PM Post #12 of 26
About the only worth of many of the newer "high-end" PCDP's is they have an optical/line out, meaning you can use them with an amp and make great CD->MD transfers. My D-EJ925 is now a dust collector, for the most part........
600smile.gif
 
Jul 15, 2003 at 7:37 PM Post #13 of 26
Quote:

Originally posted by Eagle_Driver
Not quite. The reduced output power is more likely a direct cause of the second point that I stated: maximum battery life. Very-high-power headphone outputs in portables are also very power-hungry to begin with - almost as power-hungry as a stable CD transport motor is. (Some crappy CD motors are also extremely power-hungry, due to the primitive, archaic motor design.)


I disagree, I think Durian is right. "AVLS" has nothing to do with 'maximum battery life'. It's a feature consumers never asked for and don't need. So why do manufacturers now make -deliberate- attempts to limit the volume? Its very reasonable to assume litigation as a factor, and I could see this being a court case in the US. I believe it is also because Sony et al. were influenced by research reports saying that people get accustomed to loud listening levels and this damages their hearing, realized that if their precious consumers go deaf from listening to the walk/discmans, they won't have much use to buy these products. And there goes a sale... Warnings about hearing damage are all over Sony's consumer literature.

I also disagree with the theory that you can't make a decent sounding portable today without setting the price at $1,000. That's ridiculous, the price of inflation has not risen that much since 95, when you could have a reasonably good sounding portable for at least a reasonable price. For example, you could limit things that impair sound quality without raising the cost a cent; such as not extending battery times to such extremes, or only raising it a few cents, such as using a few better quality electronic parts that improve or at least do not impair the sound quality. Simply adding a switch to remove compression completely helps, as does ensuring a good quality path to the headphone output, taking care not to degrade it. And NOT deliberately limiting the volume (which limits dynamics as well), would be a good place to start improving the sound quality of portables today. But as someone else said, its clear to me that more and more, consumers at large don't give a rat's patootie about sound quality. After putting up ads to sell my portables recently, no one ever asked me about that aspect. What is most important on their minds is: "Does it play MP3's?". Which says it all right there. As if it wasnt' bad enough that the audio industry took a HUGE backslide in progress by coming out with CD's, which proved to be far, far inferior to decent analog LP playback, and was accepted simply because they told consumers it was progress and consumers believed it, now the standard in sound quality has become even lower with MP3's. A format no better than the cassettes I used to listen to on my Walkman, fifteen years ago.

It isn't just portables that have drastically declined in sound quality, its the ENTIRE field of audio equipment (don't get me started on home theatre...). Thanks to consumer marketing and the lowest common denominator, all of us that appreciate and actually remember sound quality, now have to eat the garbage the ignorant masses choose to eat. Because good food is scarce.
 
Jul 16, 2003 at 2:06 AM Post #14 of 26
Quote:

Originally posted by Duncan
MD... that is the reason that modern [portable] CD players suck...

MD was a dieing horse, so... if you can make MD sound better than CD... wow, MD is great, listen - sounds better than the original CD - must buy one!


I hope this is a joke, if this where true, then simply buying a PCD player from a brand such as Emerson or Samsung would greatly enhance sound quality.
 
Jul 16, 2003 at 2:52 AM Post #15 of 26
"As if it wasnt' bad enough that the audio industry took a HUGE backslide in progress by coming out with CD's, which proved to be far, far inferior to decent analog LP playback, and was accepted simply because they told consumers it was progress and consumers believed it, now the standard in sound quality has become even lower with MP3's. A format no better than the cassettes I used to listen to on my Walkman, fifteen years ago.

It isn't just portables that have drastically declined in sound quality, its the ENTIRE field of audio equipment (don't get me started on home theatre...). Thanks to consumer marketing and the lowest common denominator, all of us that appreciate and actually remember sound quality, now have to eat the garbage the ignorant masses choose to eat. Because good food is scarce."

i really think cds were a nice and necessary step. a well done cd can sound wonderful on equipment that isn't out of reach of most consumers. while a decent turntable setup may be a little too expensive for many consumers. not to mention the effort needed to calibrate your record player. music had to become portable and the cd has allowed this without sacrificing sound quality too much.

i agree there is a lot of cheap audio equipment out there today. but, it doesn't take much research to find some very nice gear at some great prices.

also...mp3s aren't the standard...redbook cds are...you aren't forced to download mp3s to get music...you just buy the album on cd
 

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